Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany


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Proposed deletion of Annett RennebergEdit

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The article Annett Renneberg has been proposed for deletion because it appears to have no references. Under Wikipedia policy, this biography of a living person will be deleted after seven days unless it has at least one reference to a reliable source that directly supports material in the article. The nominator also raised the following concern:

Unreferenced article about German actress

If you created the article, please don't be offended. Instead, consider improving the article. For help on inserting references, see Referencing for beginners, or ask at the help desk. Once you have provided at least one reliable source, you may remove the {{prod blp/dated}} tag. Please do not remove the tag unless the article is sourced. If you cannot provide such a source within seven days, the article may be deleted, but you can request that it be undeleted when you are ready to add one.

Lots of red linksEdit

I recently started List of members of the 19th Bundestag (almost two years late) and found out our coverage of German MPs is rather lacking. So if you feel bored, why not start a stub on a politician? If you choose well, maybe you can start the article on the future Chancellor of Germany ;) —Kusma (t·c) 19:18, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

The Bundestag constituencies are also in a horrible shape (some of the articles haven't been updated since 2009!). I also don't know what the best format is. Instead of updating an existing article, I just tried a slight variation at Koblenz (electoral district), but getting the data into the tables is too much work to do manually. Any ideas on the best way forward? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kusma (talkcontribs) 20:56, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

I am active on this field. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lovemankind83 (talkcontribs) 09:43, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

I noticed :) Thank you for helping out! —Kusma (t·c) 09:50, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
The page has still has so many instances of {{Interlanguage link}} that it shows up in Category:Pages with too many expensive parser function calls, so some of the red links at the end are not garnished with an {{ill}}. Under 500 red links would be nice ;) —Kusma (t·c) 20:00, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Christian Morgenstern, Galgenlieder, Nachdichtung by Lettvin of Der HechtEdit

My apologies for suggesting a correction of Lettvin's Nachdichtung of Der Hecht from The Fat Abbot, Fall-Winter of '62.

http://jerome.lettvin.com/Jerome/TheFatAbbot.pdf

Included here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galgenlieder

[Der Hecht] adored the Host, denounced the Aryan

Ought it not be Arian - an adherent of an early Christian heresy taught by Arius, Archdeacon of Alexandria, denying the divinity of Christ and appointing him the role of the foremost spirit of God's creation* as opposed to Aryan, one of the Indo-European race, or in racialist discourse a Northern European?

This error runs back to the original periodical.

Lettvin was clearly a highly erudite man so I can only assume the printer stumbled. As the entire literary conceit is part of Lettvin's invention referring to the original is useless.

A footnote on the possibility might help.

Also to aid comprehension of the Nachdichtung of 'Der Werwolf', a footnote might explain that Ontology Recapitulates Philology is another joke of Lettwin's. Sadly nowadays few would recognise that it is a parody of Haeckel's Biogenetic Law, expressed as Die Ontogenese recapituliert die Phylogenese, the supposed and chimerical principle that the embryonic development of an organism repeats its evolution.

2A00:23C6:C08A:200:3C49:8D4:E5CD:B2E9 (talk) 16:03, 16 August 2019 (UTC) Patrick Gray (amateur, late Dux of Dornoch Academy, applying to St. Andrew's to study German.)

  • Agreeing nicely with the ecclesiastical atmosphere and Pelagianism, another early Christian heresy denying the Original Sin, taught by a British monk, Pelagius, and mentioned in the Nachdichtung.
Hi Patrick, your theory that Arianism, not Aryanism is intended, is plausible, but unless there are any scholarly sources that state this theory, Wikipedia can't really suggest this -- it is original research. It seems to me that Lettvin's versions of the texts are actually more sophisticated than the original (Lettvin compares Morgenstern to Lewis Carroll; personally, I explain Ogden Nash to Germans by comparing him to Morgenstern). Good luck with your university place! —Kusma (t·c) 19:22, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

MfD nomination of Portal:EifelEdit

Ambox warning orange.svg Portal:Eifel, a page related to this project, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; you may participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Eifel and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Portal:Eifel during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Bermicourt (talk) 06:23, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

MfD nomination of Portal:Ore MountainsEdit

Ambox warning orange.svg Portal:Ore Mountains, a page related to this project, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; you may participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Ore Mountains and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Portal:Ore Mountains during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Bermicourt (talk) 20:16, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

MfD nomination of Portal:Elbe Sandstone MountainsEdit

Ambox warning orange.svg Portal:Elbe Sandstone Mountains, a page related to this project, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; you may participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Elbe Sandstone Mountains and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Portal:Elbe Sandstone Mountains during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Bermicourt (talk) 20:16, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

MfD nomination of Portal:WesterwaldEdit

Ambox warning orange.svg Portal:Westerwald, a page related to this project, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; you may participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Westerwald and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Portal:Westerwald during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Bermicourt (talk) 20:16, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

MfD nomination of Portal:Lüneburg HeathEdit

Ambox warning orange.svg Portal:Lüneburg Heath, a page related to this project, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; you may participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Lüneburg Heath and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Portal:Lüneburg Heath during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Bermicourt (talk) 20:18, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

MfD nomination of Portal:Palatine ForestEdit

Ambox warning orange.svg Portal:Palatine Forest, a page related to this project, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; you may participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Palatine Forest and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Portal:Palatine Forest during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Bermicourt (talk) 20:27, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Need help with Historian/Linguist and Nazi Walter KuhnEdit

I think that any members of the project who know any Polish and might be able to access Polish-language sources should really take a look at the article Walter Kuhn. Compare that to his biography in the Ostdeutsche Bibliographie by Norbert Angermann [1]. Now I admit, that biography is clearly sanitized of his involvement with Nazism, but I've already caught one misleading citation in our article and I notice that the worst accusations against Kuhn tend to be cited, without page numbers, to Polish sources. In one case I think (citation that Kuhn was prejudiced against Poles) as far as I can tell there is no indication that Kuhn was influenced by this to encourage genocide, as seems to be implied in the current article [2], but my certainty is limited by the fact that I'm using my A1 Czech and google translate to read the Polish and the the preview is so limited on google books. At the very least it looks like a question of WP:Weight. At the moment we present Kuhn as though he was only some kind of Nazi shill (and he appears to have done some of that), which completely ignores his apparently very reputable career after the war.--Ermenrich (talk) 00:27, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

I've begun trying to revise the article, but some help with the Polish sources in particular would be appreciated.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:46, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
Another user has added back a lot of content I removed as WP:UNDUE for WP:WEIGHT and WP:POV reasons. I would very much appreciate any independent assessments of the state of the article.--Ermenrich (talk) 04:25, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Discussion of interestEdit

A discussion which may be of interest to members of this project can be found here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:37, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

German nobilityEdit

I need some help understanding the German nobility, and article 109 of the Weimar Constitution. According to the many pages on different German nobility, following 1919, titles were changed to just be a part of the surname (e.g. Graf#Modern usage in German surnames). However, the wording is not very specific as to the broader affect. Because when looking at people who died 6, 21 and 117 years before the law came into effect, they are also written as if affected by the law. But can a law really retroactively change peoples names and history? In any case, it needs to be better clarified on the various pages and nobility templates. Skjoldbro (talk) 16:01, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

I think the key phrase from Artikel 109, "Adelsbezeichnungen gelten nur als Teil des Namens und dürfen nicht mehr verliehen werden", simply meant that titles such as "Graf" were no longer considered as such but rather just a component of the name. Prior to 1919, they were regarded as titles, which were also part of the formal name. I do not understand your concern. Jmar67 (talk) 06:42, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
@Jmar67: it just seems like every German page, regardless of age, has the title as a last name. E.g. Otto Eduard Leopold Fürst von Bismarck, Herzog zu Lauenburg, should it not rather be “Fürst Otto Eduard”? Skjoldbro (talk) 14:01, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
I think that's how it's always been said in modern German, but I'm not entirely sure.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:04, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
The title used with a geographical region, family name, or other qualifier normally goes at the end. Otherwise it precedes the name. In order for it to be considered part of the name in the sense of Article 109, it has to follow the first convention, e.g. Otto Graf Lambsdorff, not Graf Otto Lambsdorff, to use an example of a prominent FDP politician during my stay in Germany. It may have been common prior to 1919 to place "Graf" ahead of the name in particular families. But it looks like "von Schlieffen" did not do that. In the case of Bismarck, there were two titles involved (Fürst and Herzog), and they would have to follow the name. At any rate, placing the title after the name is not necessarily a consequence of the Weimar Constitution. Jmar67 (talk) 02:56, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
@Jmar67:@Ermenrich: Thanks for the replies, I guess that makes sense. Do you think the pages on German nobility pages are clear enough in pointing this out? Skjoldbro (talk) 18:38, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
I don't think it is necessary to mention the 1919 change unless it is especially noteworthy (such as the Graf Lambsdorff case). If you think a particular page should address it, please advise. Jmar67 (talk) 10:48, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
I can't think of any particular case where it would need to be pointed out, but there might be some.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:26, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

POV at the article Werner ConzeEdit

Werner Conze was a very important West German historian, the co-editor of Geschichtliche Grundbegriffe [de], and one of the founders of Conceptual history. According to our article, Werner Conze, however: Werner Conze (born December 11, 1910 in Amt Neuhaus, died April 1986 in Heidelberg) was a pro- Nazi German historian in Nazi Germany, who continued to work as historian in post-World War II West Germany. He was a member of the Schieder commission.. Compare that with de:Werner Conze, which handles Conze's Nazi connections in a neutral manner. Note also that Conze had a career of 41 years after World War II. I'm currently otherwise occupied dealing with similar issues on the article Walter Kuhn, but I implore anyone who knows anything about West German historiography, or anyone who can access RS on it, to help clean this thing up. This is a persistent problem in many articles.--Ermenrich (talk) 18:28, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

I realize people are very reluctant to touch articles like this, especially after my own recent experiences trying to edit one. But the article doesn't just suffer from POV, it suffers from mis-used or distorted sources and serious WP:WEIGHT and WP:DUE issues. I would hope someone from the project most qualified to address things like this would at least try to make a difference. There are several good sources on Conze, including a complete biography from 2010.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:30, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Rudi GutendorfEdit

I have nominated Rudi Gutendorf in the Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates was a Guinness record holder having coached 55 teams in 32 countries across five continents.Article needs to be updated need.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 21:26, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

@Pharaoh of the Wizards: Have added one more coaching job he had from this source. The source also puts his spell at Hertha two years later, please check upon that again. Zwerg Nase (talk) 09:44, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

FA nomination for The Cabinet of Dr. CaligariEdit

FYI to anyone interested, I've nominated The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari for featured article. Thanks! — Hunter Kahn 04:04, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Nomination of Portal:Franconia for deletionEdit

A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Franconia is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Franconia until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America1000 20:25, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Nomination of Portal:Pomerania for deletionEdit

A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Pomerania is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Pomerania until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America1000 20:28, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Staatssekretär and Parlamentarischer StaatssekretärEdit

We should have a better article to link to de:Staatssekretär than the very British permanent secretary. I have created redirects for the moment (to Secretary of state#Germany) but if anybody feels like writing an article, it would be much appreciated :) —Kusma (t·c) 21:00, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Page move discussionEdit

Greetings! I have recently relisted a requested move discussion at Memorial and Education Centre Andreasstrasse, regarding a page relating to this WikiProject. Discussion and opinions are invited. Thanks, Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:43, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Otto of Greece GAREdit

A Good Article Reassessment proposal has been started at Otto of Greece, an article within this project's scope. All interested editors are invited to participate. Constantine 17:20, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Request for information on WP1.0 web toolEdit

Hello and greetings from the maintainers of the WP 1.0 Bot! As you may or may not know, we are currently involved in an overhaul of the bot, in order to make it more modern and maintainable. As part of this process, we will be rewriting the web tool that is part of the project. You might have noticed this tool if you click through the links on the project assessment summary tables.

We'd like to collect information on how the current tool is used by....you! How do you yourself and the other maintainers of your project use the web tool? Which of its features do you need? How frequently do you use these features? And what features is the tool missing that would be useful to you? We have collected all of these questions at this Google form where you can leave your response. Walkerma (talk) 04:24, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Requested moveEdit

Greetings! I have recently relisted a requested move discussion at Talk:AXN (German TV channel), regarding a page relating to this WikiProject. Discussion and opinions are invited. Thanks, comrade waddie96 ★ (talk) 09:40, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Germany state and regional portalsEdit

With the demise of Portal:Berlin, it's clear that few, if any, Germany-related portals are unlikely to survive the current deletion campaign which sees them competing with articles and so sets page views as the decisive factor, however notable the subject area is. Even Portal: Harz which survived a deletion bid last April has been put up again for deletion by the same crew. It's also clear that there's no effective support from project editors to retain them in portal space either. With that in mind, I'm in the process of moving the remnant of the Germany-related portals to project space so that we can at least continue to use them in a very practical way to see topic coverage 'at a glance' and to continue to expand and improve topic articles in a structured way as I have been doing over the years using these portals as my guide. I'll put links to them in due course on the main project page. Bermicourt (talk) 19:59, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Help DYK Ronald Grossarth-MaticekEdit

I think this could be DYKed, but needs expansion, and think most mundane issues (not related to the recent controversy) are in German. De wikipedia has a much longer article, but most sources are in German, so if someone would like to help add ~200+ words with German refs, it would be appreciated. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:24, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Crimes of Nazi GermanyEdit

Is this salvageable? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:36, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

That is no article, in this form it possibly could survive as a list. --Kgfleischmann (talk) 10:27, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

FYI: Request for comment regarding Austrian (or Swiss) Standard GermanEdit

Hi, I would like to call your attention to the following request for comment because it is relevant to Standard German, especially to Austrian (or Swiss) Standard German:

Thanks --mach 🙈🙉🙊 14:31, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Discussion of German language or grammar articles - where?Edit

Hello. I'm very very sorry if this is a stupid FAQ or the answer is right in front of me or if I have just got something massively and fundamentally wrong. I've frequently been guilty of all the above and plenty more so please be kind to me if I've done it yet again.

  • I'd like to discuss a specific issue about how we do some German language articles. It's not huge, but it does affect more than one so it seems better to seek a more central forum than to start off a discussion on one Talk page in the hope of being able to apply its outcome to others. And I really hate mad crusaders who just get a bee in the bonnet and rock up and charge around changing colour to color or trunk to boot in 600 articles, so I would rather discuss it politely and centrally and try to understand the issue with other editors who are more knowledgeable than me (a low bar, tbh). The outcome of my enquiry will not be an impassioned orgy of editing across dozens of articles. Indeed it might be nothing at all.
  • I also slightly hate bothering individual German-speaking friends here (you know who you are!) or friends/family IRL with my whingeing, so I am looking for a proper whinge-forum in these parts instead! (Goak here).
  • I've been a member of, but not a significant contributor to, this Wikiproject for some time so – or but – I don't really feel as if I know my way around it properly. Sorry.
  • I've looked in vain at the project front page, under things such as Project Divisions, Related Groups, and Task Forces, for a specific mention of language or grammar and not yet found it; similarly I don't think that there is a separate "Wikiproject German Language", or whatever, that I have overlooked, but please tell me if I am wrong.
  • So where do I ask my question? There must (must – yesno??) be such a place – so I ask it there and, I hope, several editors with knowledge of, and commitment to, our German language coverage call me a silly sausage and set me on the right path, or not, or whatever? It might even be right here, but I didn't want to start without checking, and I don't want to risk reinventing the wheel if exactly the right place exists elsewhere, but I have simply failed to find it.
  • To reiterate: it is a kind of procedural editing custom-and-practice question about German language articles on en-Wikipedia. It is not a question about how to speak or write German (I'm quite rubbish enough at that anyway, without bringing it here to annoy you!)

The highly observant reader will have noticed that I've not actually said what my editing concern is! This isn't an accidental omission – I didn't want to start two hares off running at the same time as it so often leads to a mess. Please tell me where a good place is to actually ask my language article question, and I will actually ask it! Finally, it is not earthshatteringly urgent and no-one will die if it is not resolved in the next 10 minutes, and I am not planning to sue, "contact Wiki", or withdraw my massive sponsorship, so if you would rather take your time and have a cup of tea, please do. Or don't worry at all. It's minor. The Thames is not on fire. Thanks and best wishes to all, DBaK (talk) 14:47, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

  • [User:DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered|DBaK]]: I can think of several valid places where you could ask about German language and grammar. Here is fine, but if you want to avoid any Germany-centrism and make sure you include Austrian and Swiss perspectives as well, Wikipedia talk:German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board would be a classic place to ask (older than this WikiProject, but a bit less active these days). If it is mostly about Germany and you wish to debate how to change a convention, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany/Conventions is a place to start. But as long as you advertise your discussion well, anywhere will be fine (last discussion about German language I was involved in was in the Help talk namespace of all places). If you are happy to ask here: how can we help you? —Kusma (t·c) 19:12, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
    • Thanks Kusma for the very helpful reply. I will have a look around and make my enquiry somewhere. Please, however, do not hold your breath as the world of work and real life has caught up with me a bit right now ... Cheers DBaK (talk) 21:05, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Umlauts in an alphabetical listEdit

Hoping someone here can advise about this. Is it correct that in an alphabetical list Düsseldorf precedes Duisburg because of the umlaut (ue)? SarahSV (talk) 01:04, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Return to the project page "WikiProject Germany".