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WikiProject Biography (Rated Project-class)
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WikiProject guidance on structure of articlesEdit

Recently I have been involved in a discussion about how to best structure a particular BLP article, and it arguably raises questions pertinent to other BLPs. (Relevant discussion is here and here.) At issue is how to handle the details of a notable person's life not directly related to why they are notable, e.g. material involving their parents and family background, early life, education, career prior to becoming significant, and aspects of their personal life, including spouse, family members, personal interests, and so forth. In this instance, the narrow question is whether all of the foregoing material should be dealt with in a single section, or discussed in separate "early" and "current" sections. To my knowledge, this WikiProject does not have a guideline or information page about this. My questions for editors coming across this message: is there something like this that I have missed? Has there been past discussion about creating one? If none exists, is there a reason why one should not be developed—or might there be some interest in figuring out what one might say? WWB Too (Talk · COI) 19:17, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Distribution of biographies by date ?Edit

I have previously read a study of the numbers of biographies in Wikipedia according to the subject's date of birth, but I have tried and failed to re-find that data. I don't know if it was somewhere here, or somewhere external to WP that I read it. The number of biographies being heavily weighted towards living people, and within that to subjects whose notability has been established during the digital era IIRC, both simply because of editors' interests and because it is more difficult to find sources and establish notability for pre-digital-era subjects. Was there a project about this? Can you help, please? Monxton (talk) 13:00, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Antoine Le Picard de PhélippeauxEdit

These is his only paint: 1. Please, someone can upload it? Thank you. -- 13:01, 21 October 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk)

Cherry Thin wikipedia pageEdit

Suggest deleting entire page. I could not find a single source to verify claims in Career. A search resulted in only that Thin has created music and distributed her music. Nothing more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frazzeledferret (talkcontribs) 17:41, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Peter II, Count of AlençonEdit,_Count_of_Alen%C3%A7on

Peter II of Alençon, called the Noble (1340 – 20 September 1404, Argentan), ...

Died 2 September 1404 Argentan

Did he die on the 2nd or 20th of September? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cloidl (talkcontribs) 03:44, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

November edit-a-thons from Women in RedEdit

Women in Red | November 2020, Volume 6, Issue 11, Numbers 150, 173, 178, 180, 181

Online events:

Join the conversation: Women in Red talkpage

Stay in touch: Join WikiProject Women in Red | Opt-out of notifications

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--Megalibrarygirl (talk) 18:52, 28 October 2020 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Rfc: lead of Wendy CarlosEdit

An Rfc concerning the article Wendy Carlos is under discussion at Talk:Wendy Carlos#RfC on phrasing of her gender transition in lead. Your feedback would be appreciated. Mathglot (talk) 20:34, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Astronauts wivesEdit

Hello. I am watching the TV series on Disney+ The Right Stuff — which by the way is slightly below average — and out of curiosity I tried to look in wikipedia for the biographies of the wives of the original Mercury Seven astronauts. I was kind of surprised there is none, except Annie Glenn. These women have been portrayed in a number of books, movies and TV series — and of course in Life — and I was kind of surprised they have not been considered worthy of a wikipedia entry. Thanks Hektor (talk) 22:42, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

FAR noticeEdit

I have nominated Kellie Loder for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm Bacon 20:01, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Asking for help...Edit

Hello. I was kindly suggested by Tom (LT) to ask here for more help in relation to the new quotes and footnotes I have included in the draft about the biography of Dr. Juan Cabrera Garrido Draft Talk:Juan Cabrera Garrido, to verify if it´s been improved. Thank you in advance!. Best regards. Tulkas76 (talk) 13:30, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Lida Fleitmann BloodgoodEdit


The article Lida Fleitmann Bloodgood has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Not notable.

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Mathglot (talk) 01:57, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

RfC on succession boxes on US presidential biographies (and the future of succession boxes)Edit


An RfC is occurring at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) § Succession boxes for US Presidents that concerns the inclusion of succession boxes in articles about US presidents. The RfC's outcome may have implications for the future of succession boxes more generally. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the village pump. Thank you. (talk) 07:55, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

FAR for Paul KagameEdit

I have nominated Paul Kagame for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. (t · c) buidhe 04:03, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Musical groups/bands members sectionEdit

Is there guidelines in regards to what should be and shouldn't be included in musical groups/bands members section and is the members section covered under BLP?

As some group members are not well known hence an article couldn't be created as there're not enough information to write beyond the lead section and infobox, can we include their stage name, birth name, date of birth, nationality and their position/roles inside the members section. Does this violates BLP guidelines? I just need some clarifications only. Paper9oll | Talk:(Paper9oll) 14:15, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Please help improve David McBride (whistleblower)Edit

Hi all

I just started David McBride (whistleblower) and have a lot of references but would appreciate some help in writing and structuring the article.


John Cummings (talk) 10:35, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Ken James (Australian Actor) - Quality Reassessment RequestEdit

Hi all,

Over the past few weeks, I've gone to the effort of expanding upon Ken James. I was wondering whether the article's quality grading could be reassessed as plenty of content has been added since its initial grading as a stub. If this isn't the place to request a reassessment, could someone please redirect me to the relevant discussion board. Many thanks in advance ScoobyDoobyDoo1 (talk) 10:55, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Definitely not a stub. Good work! For future reference the official assessment queue for this wikiproject is here, but evidently that can take a good while. - Astrophobe (talk) 21:25, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Fixed source titling, references, and citations.Edit

I've been finishing the bio of a French-American actor. Used public records on family, voting records, and called his acting agency for clarification and further information (Abrams Artist Agency NYC). Could someone just sew up the final editing and publish? I don't know any editors so it would be much appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Faits1789 (talkcontribs) 15:40, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

The only draft I see you've contributed to is this draft, which was blanked today under WP:G7, even though you also currently have an open AfC request and a long help desk conversation regarding this now-empty draft. Huh? - Astrophobe (talk) 21:14, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Wendy LuhabeEdit

Talk:Wendy Luhabe § This page needs to be watched for undisclosed paid editing I dream of horses (Contribs) Please notify me after replying off my talk page. Thank you. 22:48, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Hasekura Tsunenaga FAREdit

I have nominated Hasekura Tsunenaga for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. RetiredDuke (talk) 17:58, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

RfC on AMS fellowship selectivenessEdit

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Withdrawn Footlessmouse (talk) 02:20, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Should the AMS count under WP:NACADEMIC criteria number 3? Footlessmouse (talk) 22:51, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

  • I have noticed that some pages, such as Andrew Neitzke, rely on it as their only form of notability and was wondering if we can reach consensus on whether or not their fellowships are selective enough. I believe this talk page is the most relevant to post the RfC as it is a policy question for biography articles in general. I have tagged science with it as well and will make a note on that talk page. Thanks! Footlessmouse (talk) 22:51, 21 November 2020 (UTC) Footlessmouse (talk) 00:58, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Yes: I think the American Mathematical Society is clearly "a major scholarly society", so the question is whether or not it "reserves fellow status as a highly selective honor". Apparently there are 46 fellows every year, and they are mathematicians "who have made outstanding contributions to the creation, exposition, advancement, communication, and utilization of mathematics". I believe that an outstanding achievement award given to a few dozen people every year by such a large society qualifies as highly selective, comparable to some of the medical awards and fellowships that count for presumed notability. - Astrophobe (talk) 23:13, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
Also, I didn't exactly understand where you said you were going to list this Footlessmouse, but I suspect some people at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics have strong preferences if not an implicit working consensus about this already, so I think it would be a good idea to notify them. I'd be happy to do that if you weren't planning on doing it already. - Astrophobe (talk) 23:19, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
@Astrophobe: I can make a note on their talk page as well. I also wanted to ask about the American Physical Society but to keep it simple, was going to take it one step at a time. I searched through the archives and could not find past discussions on the topic. Yes, I was asking if their fellowships are selective enough. I apologize for not being more clear, I was trying to keep it short. You can see from the lists that most of them don't have articles, in contrast to other highly selective fellowships. From what I can tell, AMS and APS award fellowships too early in scientists' careers for there to be significant coverage of most recipients. Thanks! Footlessmouse (talk) 23:34, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
Awesome, sounds great! And no apology necessary, I was just trying to be as transparent as possible in my reasoning for the sake of consensus. :) - Astrophobe (talk) 23:56, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Yes. The AMS is clearly the top research-based mathematics society in the US (there are other national mathematics societies such as MAA, NAM, AWM, NCTM but they are focused on other things than research), for whom fellowship is a selective honor that they reserve only for a small subset of members whose research they consider especially significant, exactly the type of society and type of honor described by WP:PROF#C3. There is something of a cult of youth in mathematics (see e.g. the under-age-40 requirement of the Fields medal) which leads the AMS fellows program to occasionally select some of its fellows at a more junior level of seniority than some other societies might (or, to put it another way, to recognize leading researchers while they are still leading instead of waiting for them to get old and start leaning on past glory), but nevertheless they only do this for researchers who have proven and published major results. The numbers of fellows elected (not counting the initial year of the program where they kickstarted it with a large number of fellows) appear more or less in line with other societies. And it is especially important in mathematics to have this form of recognition as a way for us to have some verifiable indication of the significance of a researcher, because our more usual indicator, citation counts, are so low as to be near-useless in pure mathematics. To forestall future discussions hinted at above: yes, the American Physical Society obviously counts too, at least for the APS fellows whose citation is for their research (most but not all of them). As for "most of them don't have articles", that is not actually a meaningful indication of whether most of them should have articles, and my impression is that one could say the same thing for IEEE Fellowship, which is explicitly written into the criterion as something that passes that criterion. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:57, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
@David Eppstein: to be clear, I do not mean to diminish the rewards at all, but was simply asking if we could come to consensus on it, given the lack of significant coverage of many of the recipients. I am totally fine with consensus saying they count. I am pretty neutral on whether or not I think they should count, as I believe there are good arguments on both sides of the topic, though I lean towards them not counting. I am not on a crusade here and do not wish to be put in the middle of arguments, it is just a policy question. To answer your question of why it possibly would not count is, again, a total lack of significant coverage for many of the recipients implying they are not selective enough with their fellowships. Thanks! Footlessmouse (talk) 00:11, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
We have consensus on WP:PROF and on its criterion C3. We do not need to revisit that for society after society in explicit addenda to the criteria. The current level of discussion of fellowships that do or don't pass in academic AfDs is already perfectly adequate. (For instance, FRSA has been generally deemed not passing, because handed out too freely.) Your repeated "lack of significant coverage" comments disturb me, though. They suggest that you are trying to fit these people into the wrong notability criterion, WP:GNG. That is not how academic notability on Wikipedia works. And your test case, Andrew Neitzke, is unquestionably notable by criterion C1 of WP:PROF, not just criterion C3, so he is evidence that both criteria are appropriately in line with each other in this case, and your claim that Neitzke is only notable through C3 is flat-out incorrect. Probably he is also notable as a Marshall Scholar. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:19, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
Again, I really don't feel as though there is a need to attack me here. If you believe consensus has been reached on this before, can you give me a link? If you have reliable sources for Neitzke showing he has had broad impact in his field, it would be awesome if you could post those on that talk page, so the article can be improved. I am not nominating it for deletion right now, this is a policy RfC. Thanks! Footlessmouse (talk) 00:32, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
I am not attacking you, merely pointing out that your wording here suggests an inaccurate understanding of WP:PROF. Your "reliable sources for Neitzke showing he has had broad impact in his field" is another piece of wording pointing to the same inaccurate understanding. Have you participated in many of the AfDs listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Academics and educators? Criterion C1 is the most common criterion discussed there (both positively and negatively, depending on the case) and it is almost always discussed in terms of citation counts, for instance on Google Scholar, not in terms of published sources telling us what those citation counts are. This is not any different in principle from the way that GNG-focused discussions can turn on the number of published sources about the subject (and not on the number of sources that list other sources about the subject). The criterion does not ask for reliable sources telling us the citation counts, just as GNG does not ask for reliable sources that provide a bibliographic listing of multiple in-depth publications about the subject — in both cases, we accept the citations or the in-depth publications directly themselves as evidence of notability. To put it more bluntly: If you go to the Neitzke article, click on the Google Scholar profile link at the bottom, and look in the upper left corner of the profile, you will see that Google Scholar lists some 4200 publications about Neitzke's research, far more than GNG demands. Perhaps if you think the article needs expansion you could try reading those 4200 publications to find the ones that describe his research in-depth and summarize what they say about it. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:39, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
Please see WP:PROF: "The person's research has had a significant impact in their scholarly discipline, broadly construed, as demonstrated by independent reliable sources." How is "reliable sources show they have broad impact in their field" a misinterpretation? It sounds to me that you think guidelines should be modified to be more inline with AfD, feel free to propose that. Also, that's not how GNG works, if anything, they could be used to build a page titled the scientific work of Nietzke, and only if they provide significant coverage of his actual work, not just referencing him which has never counted as coverage. This feels like I'm being attacked as all of this belongs on Nietzke's talk page and not here and you brought it up only to disparage my arguments. This RfC is not about that page and it is not my job to clean up other editor's messes, why would I be expected to read all those articles, you are being overly rude for no reason. Footlessmouse (talk) 00:50, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
Academics are notable because of their academic publications, just as sportspeople are notable for their sporting accomplishments and politicians are notable for the offices they hold, not for irrelevant other aspects of their personal lives. We have 4200 "independent reliable sources" listed by Google Scholar that, collectively, provide evidence for the significance of Neitzke's publications. That's what C1 has been interpreted to mean in thousands of AfDs. If you still fail to understand that, after having it explained to you, then I don't see the point in continuing to try to inform you of how academic notability works. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:03, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
@David Eppstein: I will spend time reading more, but I'm done with all this. This really was a simple question that has nothing to do with NPROF C1. I rarely edit BLPs and confrontations like this are why. I realize you are an admin in mathematics so if this is really some policy that has already been dictated, you can close the RfC and leave a summary stating that, otherwise, I can pretty much guarantee consensus will say it counts, which you probably realize too—which makes your berating even more dumbfounding. I did not mean to offend anyone or push any buttons, I thought it was a straightforward question. I can see that I have angered people though, so this is my last post here. I have unwatched all related pages and projects and very much hope to avoid any future confrontations. Footlessmouse (talk) 01:44, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
How does it have nothing to do with PROF#C1? You added a dubious {{notability}} tag to a new article about an academic, when questioned you brought it here asserting incorrectly that C1 does not apply and that the only possible notability was through C3, and using your incorrect judgement of C1 as the basis for questioning whether C3 was appropriate for this society, and when it was pointed out that in fact the article also passes C1 you continued to quibble about whether that was even true. If your new-page patrolling had applied C1 in a manner consistent with its application in AfDs, this whole argument wouldn't have happened. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:51, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Yes. The AMS fellowships were started in 2012 and, as David Eppstein writes, they are prestigious. For this particular example, Andy Neitzke has established an international reputation as a researcher in theoretical physics. His career has been distinguished, starting with his undergraduate time in Princeton, followed by a one-year Marshall scholarship in Cambridge, a Ph.D. under Vafa at Harvard, followed by a post-doc there, 3 years at the Institute of Advanced Studies, a professorship at Austin, the 2019 AMS fellowship and now a full professorship at Yale. (Disclosure: I knew Neitzke during his time in Cambridge, England.) Mathsci (talk) 00:53, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Note I struck out my first comment above, I am not contesting that page, I have removed it from my watch list to avoid any future confrontations. It would be great if we left this open and get consensus and have a summary written for it so that it is saved for future reference. Thanks! Footlessmouse (talk) 00:58, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Yes. The AMS Fellows program lets the AMS pick out the people that they think are notable. This seems, in my experience, to match up fairly closely with a strong pass of WP:NPROF C1 via citations, and the AMS fellows program otherwise appears to be sufficiently selective. In the cases where the case via citations is more marginal, we shouldn't second-guess the AMS unless there are compelling reasons to do so. Russ Woodroofe (talk) 01:18, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Relevant discussion on including biographies directly in a categoryEdit

See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Psychology#Feedback_requested:_should_this_be_a_container_cat? and please provide feedback. Thanks. ―Justin (koavf)TCM 01:43, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Joan E. GoodyEdit

The Joan E. Goody article begins with “Joan E. Goody (December 1, 1935 – 8 September 2009) was a leading Boston, and well-known American architect known for her influence in the latter part of the 20th and early 21st century on Boston modern architecture and historic preservation.” What is meant by ‘leading Boston’? Bostonian? I looked through the history a bit, and it has been like this for over a decade with no clue (to me, at least) as to what was meant. Some editors have changed it here and there (not by adding, for instance, “citizen” after “Boston”, but by changing the sentence more significantly), but it kept being changed back by others. Is it possible I’m missing something that’s obvious to everyone except me? Thanks for any assistance. Hamamelis (talk) 05:06, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

@Hamamelis: It's trying to say "a leading Boston architect, and a well-known architect in the rest of the U.S.", but using as few words as possible, I believe. It's also saying she's American because nationality should appear in opening sentences, even if they end up awkwardly forced. If you rewrite it, leave a note at the talk page that it was confusing and the editors should stop reverting it. Kingsif (talk) 05:56, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
Thank you, that makes sense, and I think you’re correct. I’ve written things like this myself, which sounded fine to me (at the time). I’ll see what I can do. Hamamelis (talk) 06:04, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Sam SloanEdit

Was wondering if some more editors could take a look at Sam Sloan and Talk:Sam Sloan? The article has recently been worked on quite heavily by an editor in what seems to be a good-faith attempt to clean things up, but there's still lots of unsourced or poorly sourced content that might need more eyes looking at it and assessing it. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:49, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

December with Women in RedEdit

Women in Red | December 2020, Volume 6, Issue 12, Numbers 150, 173, 178, 182, 183

Online events:

Other ways to participate:

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--Megalibrarygirl (talk) 16:42, 26 November 2020 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Minor MOS:BIO consolidation proposalEdit

  FYI: Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography#Proposal to better address "The"/"the" in names of performers (etc.) and groups thereof
 — SMcCandlish ¢ 😼  05:58, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Return to the project page "WikiProject Biography".