User talk:Kafka Liz/Archive 2

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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3

Talkpage archiving

Hiya, FYI, I went ahead and deleted the accidental redirects of the talkpage archive. Also, as a tip, though you're welcome to create an archive at User talk:Kafka Liz/Archive 1: August - December 2007, a shorthand way of expressing that would be /Archive 1: August - December 2007/ (with both leading and trailing slashes). Although, most people would probably just choose a name of "Archive 1", since that will work better with other systems if you end up having a lot of archives in the future. But it's your talkpage, you can name your archives anything you want. :) --Elonka 20:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Elonka! I'm still learning how to archive, as you can see, and much appreciate your help. I may well change the name at some point for simplicity's sake; I just thought the dates would be handy for figuring out what was in them. I'll try to read up on it some more so I don't screw it up again next time! :) Kafka Liz (talk) 20:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Chartophylax Liz: Thank you for the help archiving my talkpage. Yours, Aramgar (talk) 20:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
You may not want to thank me too soon... although I think I did better with yours. Kafka Liz (talk) 20:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)


That's certainly a good description of the issue! I'll try to take a look at the proposed rewrite when I can, I'm trying desperately to actually get some work done, and not get drawn too much into the kudzu vines. I have to admit that the Crusades are not an area of history I favored in my studies, except as it impacted Anglo-Norman and Angevin England, so I'm not too sure how much help I'm actually being. Thanks for the encouragement! Ealdgyth | Talk 03:52, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

(groans) I knew I didn't want to step into this minefield, I knew it I knew it I knew it...It'd help if I had access to more of the sources, I might be able to actually contribute more on the sources then. Ealdgyth | Talk 17:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Here we go again... And I notice my source issues are still unadressed. If i hadn't spent all day actually writing content... I'd be more aggressive about it. As it is.. my brain is fried. Will we ever atually discuss the article instead of watching it switch back and forth? Ealdgyth | Talk 06:14, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

re your "welcome"

I disagree with your edits but I did not attempt to undo them. Rather, I put my reaction in the talk section of the page in question. Isn't that where debates about content are supposed to go? But - correct me if I'm wrong - but you seem to feel that my initial contribution to the page was advertising and my comments in the talk section are also advertising? I may be a beginner, but where exactly should I make my case? Only on your talk page?

In terms of the self-promotion charge, I agree in principle with the Wikipedia policies, but just because something is allegedly self promotion does not mean that the original assertion (i.e. the assertion of notability) is not true. Is the concern my alleged bias or the links? The links to the off-site music sites were solely to prove the notability of the musician, not to sell product. I think over 100 songs on iTunes speaks for itself that, factually, the artist is notable. Yes, I can see now how those links seem like promotion, but when I put them in, my attitude was, if I'm trying to make my point, I ought to provide real links instead of having you/others simply trust my assertions.

So, I would submit to you: ignore or delete the links and instead Google "The Freeze" yourself. I would suggest that since "the freeze" produces many results referring to crop freezes in the south and west, that you add "punk" or "hardcore" or "Cape Cod" or similar to the search terms. Judge the notability question yourself.

Years ago, (1986) when I drove across the Sagamore Bridge, the very first highway sign on the Cape was defaced with "The Freeze" grafitti. Just a small example of Mr. Croce and his band's counter cultural impact on the Cape for almost 3 decades. "Notable" should not refer merely to people who are "established" i.e. scientists and university presidents.

Thanks.... sorry I got the tilde's wrong on the last one. Downtownboston (talk) 03:41, 22 January 2008 (UTC)Downtownboston

Hi, Downtownboston, and welcome again to Wikipedia. The "welcome" was not intended sarcastically; rather it comes from a template intended to alert relatively new users that their posts may not be entirely in keeping with Wikipedia etiquette.
First off, if you disagree with my edits, no one is stopping you from changing them: that's part of what Wikipedia is all about. In terms of explaining the reasons behind your edits, users usually put this information either on the article talk page (as you did) or in the edit summary box that appears above the "Save page" button. Please forgive me if you already know this; it can be hard sometimes to judge how familiar newer users are with Wikipedia procedure.
Regarding your initial contribution to the page, my comment was "non-notable," not "advertising" or "self-promotion." In retrospect, the "non-notable" comment may have been a bit hasty on my part -- I have been upstairs in Mr. Gorey's house and seen the work he produced for the album. I would suggest, though, that if you and Mr. Croce are one in the same, it might be wise either to leave decisions of notability to your fanbase or to consult WP:AUTO. In any case, I won't quarrel with you if you want to revert my edit. The problem with the links you provided is that they are all links to commercial sites -- sites selling the music of the band in question, and so it looks like advertising. So I removed the links but, you will notice, not your comment.
In any case, you are completely correct that notability is not restricted to "scientists and university presidents." As a short-lived roadie for the The Real Kids, I probably ought to have remembered that. Unnotably yours, Kafka Liz (talk) 04:32, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. No, this is not Clif Croce. In terms of reversing your edits, I didn't want to get in a tit for tat of edits being reversed and reversed again, so that's why I made my case.

In terms of the links, I'll repeat that I can see in hindsight how they appeared. My motivation was "what could be more mainstream than Best Buy?" In the case of eMusic, last I heard they're the #2 online retailer after iTunes, so that was also making the same argument, i.e. the band is notable enough to have 5+ albums on a site that is by no means obscure. Amazon, as many have recognized, has become the de-facto "card catalog" of published works. And iTunes, it goes without saying, is the standard for digital music by sheer market share. If anything, like most punk bands, the band would probably prefer that fans buy their music from independent retailers instead of the ones I listed, but I won't mention those indie retailers here, of course. ;-)

Thanks again. Downtownboston (talk) 15:34, 22 January 2008 (UTC)Downtownboston

Entirely understandable. Happy editing. Kafka Liz (talk) 16:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


Hi Kafka Liz, please refrain from deleting my messages, even if there is a photograph attached to it. Regards. PHG (talk) 12:10, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Since you ask, I will not. I've never seen pictures added to talk page discussions, though, and didn't think it was appropriate. But you are correct in this regard. Kafka Liz (talk) 12:15, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually, it's fine to condense someone else's messages, per WP:RTP, to "improve readability while retaining meaning." As for images, it depends how distracting that they are, and/or whether they're of a size that is making the page more difficult to download. Sometimes I have reduced other users' images to thumbnails for that purpose. But it's really a judgment call. --Elonka 17:09, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


Res maximi momenti et ponderis
This user is protected

Kafka Liz: I liked your userbox better when it was bigger. You have upset the balance a little by resizing it. Can you please change it back? Moreover, bigger probably is better when it comes to warding of fascinatio Aramgar (talk) 21:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm still working on fixing it. I can recreate the old one for you if you would like, but I prefer the size to be more uniform. Kafka Liz (talk) 21:47, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I couldn't repair the old template. So I totally recreated the template, but the look did not change. If you should want to make it bigger, you only have to change the size of the picture.--Thw1309 (talk) 22:34, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


I noticed that you supported the non-administrator rollback proposal, saying that you would like to revert vandalism more easily. I would be happy to grant you rollback, but you do know that rollback is intended to revert vandalism only and not for anything else? Acalamari 00:25, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Acalamari, and thank you for your offer! I do indeed understand that rollback is only for vandalism, not for content disputes. I was holding off requesting rollback primarily because of my current involvement at the Franco-Mongol alliance: I didn't want the cloud of anything even remotely resembling an edit war to overshadow my request. The dispute there is not the type of situation rollback was created for. That said, if you are still comfortable granting me rollback, I would be more than happy to accept it. Please let me know, and I will post a request on the appropriate page. Thanks again, Kafka Liz (talk) 14:38, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Rollback granted. I'm glad you understand the correct use of rollback, and for more information on the feature, see Wikipedia:New admin school/Rollback and Wikipedia:Rollback feature. Good luck. Acalamari 17:21, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
You're welcome! I'm sure you'll use it well. :) Acalamari 19:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Sivas massacre


Well I've looked around a bit and it seems indeed he never translated the whole work, merely parts of it which he subsequently published in his column. I've edited the page accordingly. I've found numerous sources for this but as I'm not familiar with wiki source policies(i had numerous posts edited-deleted because of this) I'll leave it up to you to insert one. You might wanna look at the following:

New Media in the Muslim World: The Emerging Public Sphere by Dale F. Eickelman, Jon W. Anderson, p.185

Cheers kfeto —Preceding comment was added at 18:21, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for responding to me. I'll check the sources and see how we can work them in. I've had some difficulty finding good English language sources on this, so I really appreciate your help! Kafka Liz (talk) 18:29, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Ataturk's religion

Well acording to various types of articles and theories over the net many have claimed that Ataturk was actually a Jew rather than a Muslim. Quote: "It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed, when read Shema Yisrael. Have a look at the website, I wont change his religion but just have a look mate, thanks. Moshino31 (talk) 15:56, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Moshino31. I have heard this particular rumor before, but the sources you've provided, particularly Jew Watch, are not considered scholarly or reliable. I'm not going to speculate on why Jews or Muslims might wish to claim Ataturk was Jewish, but it's not something that's been mentioned in any of the available scholarly biographies. Kafka Liz (talk) 16:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you


My RfA
Thank you very much for your support in my RfA which I really appreciate. It closed at 83/0/0. I was surprised by the unanimity and will do my best to live up to the new role. All the best, --ROGER DAVIES talk 16:49, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The patio at the Partal Palace in the Alhambra, Andalucia.

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, RlevseTalk 22:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC), note User:Thatcher is the clerk, not me, I'm just opening for him. RlevseTalk 22:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to use my name in the ArbCom case. I'm still on the fence about submitting, mainly since most of it is content related, but have no issues with someone else using examples involving me. Ealdgyth | Talk 02:00, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi Ealdgyth, I'm sorry - I hope you didn't feel I was treading on your toes by mentioning you! I tried to limit my initial presentation mostly to my direct experience, but there were a couple of places where your comments were part of that. Kafka Liz (talk) 02:07, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Heh. They were so unobrustive that I didn't notice them and was scared you were limiting your evidence by trying to NOT step on my toes! Go ahead and step. I'm not that concerned. I've just been REAL busy this weekend and haven't had a chance to do anything with the kudzu patch.Ealdgyth | Talk 02:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, then. There's certainly more I can add -- just have to hunt out all the diffs! :) Kafka Liz (talk) 02:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


At the Aïbeg and Serkis article: to put a "Disputed" tag in, please describe what you actually dispute. This is getting quite ridiculous to see such reactions everytime more info is brought forward about the Mongols... Regards PHG (talk) 14:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, the phone rang before I got to post on the talk page. :) Regarding the Latin of the texts, there are several Wikipedians who read Latin, so perhaps you could find one you trust to confirm the letters' contents for you. Kafka Liz (talk) 14:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)


You're welcome! :) Acalamari 20:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


Hopefully what i just posted helps. Let me know if I botched something terribly? Ealdgyth | Talk 03:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to post this! I've been too swamped this week to do much on-wiki, so I haven't had a chance to add to my evidence. Yours looks ok to me so far. One think I noticed was that the link about Edward I makes it look like Stijn Calle inserted the text about the Mongols. Can you find the earlier diff where PHG added this information? Apart from that, you might consider breaking it down a little and condensing it to make it easier for the ArbCom (who both really busy and also not as familiar with the case as we are) to digest. Your concerns do come across clearly though, so it definitely helps. Thanks again, Kafka Liz (talk) 13:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


HALP!!! - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 20:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for the nice words. :) Acalamari 00:17, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Valley View Ferry

  On 20 February, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Valley View Ferry, which you recently nominated. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--BorgQueen (talk) 20:27, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

St Anne

I'll have a look around in the next few days. User:MishaPan is an Orthodox priest & may be able to help. Johnbod (talk) 02:32, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

"non-event "

Hi Kafka Liz. Sorry to bother you again, but as far as I know the expression "non-event" is not used by Sylvia Schein in relation to the Franco-Mongol alliance in general, but only to the very specific event of the capture of Jerusalem in 1300 and its supposed remittance to the Christians. I am confident you would pursue me to the end of the world with claims of "distortion of sources" if I myself did something of the sort :). Best regards PHG (talk) 14:16, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi PHG. I am aware of how she uses the phrase. My use of it was merely a sly reference to the subtitle of her 1979 article. My apologies if this was unclear. On a side note, I am touched by your confidence in my dedication to pursuing you. It attributes me a stamina and single-mindedness I did not know I possessed. :) Kafka Liz (talk) 14:48, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
No problem. But are you sure it is quite legitimate to reference Schein to qualify the Franco-Mongol alliance as a "non-event"? Regards. PHG (talk) 14:51, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I repeat, I wasn't referencing her to that end, merely borrowing a phrase. Kafka Liz (talk) 14:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, but isn't it distorting what Schein actually writes? I don't known, but it might be interpreted as a bit abusive, playing with sources like this... As far as I know, nobody ever said the alliance was a "non-event". On another note, would you happen to be from Turkey? PHG (talk) 14:58, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I'll add a note to my statement to clarify my intent. I don't believe I was playing with sources, abusively or otherwise, as I was neither writing an article nor making an argument. I am not from Turkey, but I have travelled there quite a bit and am studying the language. Kafka Liz (talk) 15:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! No big deal really. PHG (talk) 16:09, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you, Kafka Liz, for your support in my RfB. I appreciate your trust. Acalamari 22:02, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, RfA/Bs can be very hard, even if they're going extremely well (my second RfA, despite its huge success, was still a rough experience), but they do provide good advice. With the RfB though, I felt it was best to withdraw this time around. I'll see what happens next time though. Thanks again. Acalamari 19:54, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

St Anne

Thanks - I may well return there, & one day will do an iconographic article on the Life of the Virgin. Let me know when you have done on Kells & I will get going from Calkins. Johnbod (talk) 15:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Kells - ok will do. Johnbod (talk) 12:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Date of Kells theft

See the talk page; I have changed this to 1007, but can you check the ref to Henry:150 for the old 1009? Thanks. Johnbod (talk) 01:45, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Good catch -- Henry confirms the 1007 date. I was focused on the quotation and missed it. Kafka Liz (talk) 13:38, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks - often these are sneaky vandals who change a date to see if anyone notices - or a typo of course. Johnbod (talk) 13:45, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance

This Arbitration case is closed and the final decision has been published at the link above. PHG (talk · contribs) is prohibited from editing articles relating to medieval or ancient history for a period of one year. He is permitted to make suggestions on talk pages, provided that he interacts with other editors in a civil fashion. PHG is reminded that in contributing to Wikipedia (including his talkpage contributions, contributions in other subject-matter areas, and contributions after the one-year editing restriction has expired), it is important that all sourced edits must fairly and accurately reflect the content of the cited work taken as a whole. PHG is also reminded that Wikipedia is a collaborative project and it is essential that all editors work towards compromise and a neutral point of view in a good-faith fashion. When one editor finds themselves at odds with most other editors on a topic, it can be disruptive to continue repeating the same argument. After suggestions have been properly considered and debated, and possible options considered, if a consensus is clear, the collegial and cooperative thing to do is to acknowledge the consensus, and move on to other debates.

PHG is encouraged to continue contributing to Wikipedia and Wikimedia projects in other ways, including by suggesting topics for articles, making well-sourced suggestions on talkpages, and continuing to contribute free-content images to Wikimedia Commons.

For the Arbitration committee, Thatcher 01:09, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


Great news! :) Acalamari 20:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Acalamari! My home computer died on me, but I've got a replacement now. It's good to be back. Kafka Liz (talk) 20:56, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
You're very welcome! Acalamari Bellatrix! 21:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


Ugh. I logged into a public lab and stepped away from the computer. Good catch, thanks. --Ryan Delaney talk 00:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

No problem. I was just about to leave you a note to ask if someone had gotten into your account. It didn't seem like a typical edit for you. :) Kafka Liz (talk) 00:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


File WP:SSP. How many newbie editors show up and add such a detailed reference, in French, on an article PHG has been editing. Quack, quack. Jehochman Talk 14:02, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Excellent point. I'm afraid I won't be able to get to it until much later this evening, though... Kafka Liz (talk) 14:30, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
IP user = newbie? LOL! What an excellent logic.--Appletrees (talk)
Sarcasm. Another service offered here. Appletrees, PHG is more than capable of speaking on their own behalf. Jehochman Talk 15:46, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Speaking of my own thought on this absurdity is not a matter of your concern. That is my free will. --Appletrees (talk) 16:27, 20 April 2008 (UTC)



  On 23 April, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Winchester Bible, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

-Susanlesch (talk) 06:26, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


Hi, Kafka Liz. I re-added it. Let's see if it sticks this time. You're right it was dropped in the last update. Sorry I didn't notice. -Susanlesch (talk) 11:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

No problem. Thanks for picking it. :) Kafka Liz (talk) 12:24, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


  On 23 April, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Winchester Bible, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Cheers, Bobet 12:42, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


For stepping in last night to diffuse the situation. It was such a small thing. Anyway, as you asked (your the first to ask!) its pronounced keohl; and is the Gaelic word for 'music'. Anyway, take care. Ceoil (talk) 20:20, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh and the Book of Kells was a great, great save bty. Ceoil
Thanks for the note, and for your kind words about the Book of Kells. I really enjoyed working on it and was glad to be able to help. About the other night, I'm glad everything has settled down. I just hated seeing everyone up in arms about something so trivial. Cheers, Kafka Liz (talk) 17:32, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the edits. If you might keep an eye on this, that would be appreciated. I need it, I cannot spell at all. Ceoil (talk) 22:52, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Similar would be great. The Triumph of Death? My, you were a happy little bunny as a a kid. It is great though. Ceoil (talk) 23:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I think you should merge. Ceoil (talk) 00:27, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi Kafka Liz, nice to meet you. I thought I might not disturb if I edited from the bottom, but I'll leave Garden alone for now and you can continue. –Outriggr § 01:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Sure, I saw you had chosen Fränger—which is fine, I would think—and my last edit was to put back your Fränger after the edit conflict. Are you, um, a Kafka fan? –Outriggr § 01:24, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi again Liz. Thank you for all the work; and if you email a pdf of the article, that would be great. Sorry about all the typos! Ceoil (talk) 09:46, 3 May 2008 (UTC) Sent mail. Ceoil (talk) 17:39, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Brilliant. I've lit a cigarette, opened a bottle of red wine, and thrown the doors last album on the player thing. Reading now; gimme an hour. Ceoil (talk) 17:49, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Take it out. Its weak and marginal. Nice catch; I had a funny feeling somebody would call me on it ;-( Ceoil (talk) 13:22, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

The article is very stong and interesting; I'm going to incorporate in the next few hours. Ceoil (talk) 13:34, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Great, but it's too early for wine here. Was at a wake for a friend's birthday last night and I'm a bit shakey today, to put it mildly. Hence the low value edits you caught. Things are going from bad to worse; I can lift books and just about type, but I cant walk or cook. Ceoil (talk) 13:47, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Didymoteicho Fortress

Hey, I saw your request to fix an image about Didymoteicho Fortress. What do you want me to fix? Note: Detail in commons:Commons:Graphic Lab School/Images to improve#Didymoteicho Fortress. Ivan Akira (talk) 08:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Alright it's done, please refer to User_talk:Ivan_Akira#Didymoteicho and commons:Commons:Graphic Lab School/Images to improve#Didymoteicho Fortress. Ivan Akira (talk) 06:18, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


Reword certainly, but although Harbison has written a book on van Eyck, this is a throwaway comment in a survey work, and I doubt it is his idea. one or more of 3 Belgians with long names seem to be the culprits. Johnbod (talk) 00:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

When in doubt, blame the Belgians. Would "Art historians speculate that..." be too weasle-ish? Kafka Liz (talk) 00:56, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

No such thing as the wrong flavour

Your image was only three qarters full, and brown; not black, but it'll do. Thanks, once agian. Ceoil (talk) 02:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


--Eae1983 (talk) 04:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


Be careful on the fact that your sourced material you present from the so-called scholar refers to Turkish-speaking Minority and NOT Turkish Minority. Those are two pretty different things, which for your own reasons you see as the same. But they are not. Turkish-speaking minority refers to the Muslim minority speaking Turkish. There is officially NO Turkish minority. The Muslim Minority comprises of Turks (speaking Turkish), Pomaks and Roma. Anyway I added this material at the end where a reference about the multilingual status of Komotini is made. I sincerely hope you contribute with the same ethusiasm in Istanbul as well.Cheers.Aee1980 (talk) 12:46, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

If you read the lead carefully, you'll see that it does say "Turkish speaking." Thanks, Kafka Liz (talk) 12:51, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Mother's Day

Hi KafkaLiz, I was wondering if you could look at something for me? There's an addition to the ASU library that I'd like to incorporate into Wikipedia, but since a relative of mine is involved, I have to be careful about COI. Would you be willing to take a look at this, and see if there's something that might be worth adding to the Elsie Dunin article?[1] Thanks, Elonka 02:43, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Elonka, I'll check it out. Mondays can be long, hideous days for me, but I should be able to find some time. :) Kafka Liz (talk) 09:41, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi, and as a related matter, I recently created Cross-Cultural Dance Resources. I'm not a member of the organization, but since I am related to the organization's vice-president, there's a potential for COI. I'm pretty sure I have it properly sourced, but if you have a moment, could you please take a look, and maybe leave a note on the talkpage? And of course, if you see anything inappropriate, feel free to make changes as needed. Thanks, Elonka 15:42, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi Elonka, I'll check it out. I may not be able to get to it until this evening (that problem with Mondays :)), but I'll have a look. Kafka Liz (talk) 16:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Smiles and beaches!

Tasty, thanks! Acalamari 15:59, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank You!

Thank you soooo much for your input on the article about Mrs. Pilate. I want to see this article expanded and improved as much as possible, and I'm genuinely interested in seeing this happen in a rancor-free environment. Personally, I am finding the process ruined by the actions of another editor (no point rehashing that here). However, I value having the intelligent and mature input of someone who can respect editors' opinions. Please stay and keep your wonderful observations and concerns flowing. Thanks! Ecoleetage (talk) 16:04, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Ecoleetage. Like you, I am finding the process of improving the article somewhat less than collegial. I can work on gathering some sources, including the Origen and also an Encyclopedia of Orthodox saints. I may not be able to weight in on the article talkpage today -- busy day at work and long evening ahead -- but I have do have some opinions I'd like to share, particularly on the propsed name change. Much depends, I think, on whether the article empasizes the historical figure or the religious tradition, and within the latter, the differences between the more general traditional figure and the specific Orthodox saint. Hope I'll get a chance to weigh in on this, Kafka Liz (talk) 17:51, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks again! Let's work together and with our like-minded peers to make this happen. I set up a Compromise List on the Talk Page for everyone to weigh in on what the article could look like. I hope this brings order from chaos. Ecoleetage (talk) 17:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

RFA Thanks

Thanks for your support at my recent Request for adminship. I hope you find I live up to your expectations. Best, Risker (talk) 16:34, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


Kafka Liz/Archive 2, just a note of appreciation for your recent support of my request for adminship, which ended successfully with 112 supports, 2 opposes, and 1 neutral. If there's something I've realized during my RFA process this last week, it's that adminship is primarily about trust. I will strive to honour that trust in my future interactions with the community. Many thanks! Gatoclass (talk) 06:26, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you

For keeping an eye on my user and talk pages and keeping them free of vandals. :) Acalamari 15:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Happy to help, but sorry that the need arose. You seem to be attracting an unusual amount of flak lately. Kafka Liz (talk) 15:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Heh: just some IP-sockpuppeteer who has decided to vandalize my user and talk pages now that an article they were vandalizing previously has been protected. :) Thanks again. Acalamari 15:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Right wing

No go right ahead, please. Actually, I was just about to ping you with a msg to you rude booay (ie you have email!!). Ceoil (talk) 00:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Brilliant. I'm just tending to the remaining issues at the PR, and will nom after that. Ja think its ready? Ceoil (talk) 01:15, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok, lets give it 24 hours, as you say there are bits and pieces yet, and better to iron them outside of the spotlight. Also I notice a new source just popped up ;-) Thanks. Ceoil (talk) 01:33, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
The pig is wearing a nuns head-dress.. Its to do with men being manipulated by femininity, and the notion the fall was essentially orchestrated through feminine guile. Not a very pleasant aspect of the work, considering womens positioning and prospects in society at the time. Ceoil (talk) 02:30, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

No, keep on going! If anything an FAC intensifies the rate of work. Ceoil (talk) 00:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I prefer to keep journals in the citations only. But if a book is in the citations but not in the bibliography, then that needs to be fixed; which ones have you spotted. By the way, do you know how to wikify ISBN 9784805505458 so it turns blue? It beyond me. The FAC is going well, so far ;). Ceoil (talk) 19:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

much better. Ceoil (talk) 19:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

No wait. Have a look at the formatting in this, maybe thats what we should go for. Leave it and I'll think about it. Ceoil (talk) 19:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd agree with those; would you mind looking after it, I working on the havard refs and the 'hairy people'! Abbreviate the cites, I suppose. Thanks again. Ceoil (talk) 20:03, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
No author given, I'm afraid. Ceoil (talk) 20:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Jesus. I'm trying to be all arty and intellectual here, and you are making jokes about Mr von Baldass and the hairy people—hairy from "head to foot" no less—he describes?? Tut tut. That remarkable and endlessly amusing concidence never even entered my head....<snigger> Ceoil (talk) 23:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Phew, glad to see you. Was feeling a bit out-gunned! Ceoil (talk) 23:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

That's much better. But we really need a copy editor! I pinged Notica, who really is one of the best, and then Outriggr, whom I worry may have left us - look at his last edit :( Ceoil (talk) 00:26, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Jashiin's review is top notch though. Anyway enjoy your Friday night out. Log out, Go! Ceoil (talk) 00:29, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
To clarify: the article is now 5569 words, which under FAC glare is too much for any one editor to polish. You have done an amazing job copy editing, repairing and adding to the article so far, and note that no serious objection has been made on prose style; just on incidences of text recently added before you had got there first. (You might be relieved to hear I discovered Firefox yesterday, which as a built in spell-checker. Finally!) Anyway, I don't expect you to cover flow, repair, polish and style all in one bag. The style I like most for wiki is what Outriggr gave to Three Studies for Figures at the Base of a Crucifixion, the bastard has left me at the alter, though your work is bring it closer and closer to there. Ceoil (talk) 00:55, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Sent a mail request re Dante and Bosch. Ceoil (talk) 00:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
oooooh! How nice ;-0 Congratulations and well done! Ceoil (talk) 01:22, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Lady Jane Grey

Thank you for your advise.No, you were not butting in. I'm sorry and indeed rather embarrassed that you had to witness such a silly dispute which only began after I'd changed the article's DOB to the sourced established date. I never once imagined that such a minor edit would result in WWIII. Again, I offer my apologies for my participation in a senseless on-line dispute. I have, in fact moved away from Lady Jane as I really have nothing new to contribute to the article. Again I apologise and thank you for your tact and discretion.jeanne (talk) 11:32, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you did not take offense or see my comments as condescending or interfering. These things happen sometimes, and I certainly know from experience (I think we all do :) ) how easy it can be to get sucked into arguments like this, and how difficult to take a step back. Happy editing! :) Kafka Liz (talk) 11:54, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm glad you made your timely intervention; you stopped me from making a complete fool out of myself before the Wikipedia community over a trivial detail. I really enjoy editing and submitting articles. Again, I must praise your discretion. Cheers.jeanne (talk) 14:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry to bother you but it seems our editor PhDHistorian didn't receive your message. He is now vandalising my Talk Pages using an Anonymous User although I know it's him. I have not written to him since your advice nor have I edited the Jane Grey article, but it seems he's out to persecute me. It's upsetting and disruptive to my work at Wikipedia. He is also trying to provoke a fight between me and other editors by revertind stuff I deleted from MY talk pages. KafkaLiz, what can I do? It's most unpleasant.jeanne (talk) 16:25, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry to see that you've been having trouble on your user- and talkpages. I'm not an admin, so I couldn't have been as helpful as Rockpocket was, but I can always offer advice. First off, I'm not sure that PhDHistorian is responsible for the vandalism to your talkpage. I'm pretty sure if he had more to say to you, he'd say it directly. Also, his userpage indicates that he may have retired from Wikipedia. Finally, the IP user's other contributions here and here seem to indicate that it is some third party. In short, I think this is just a troll, someone looking to stir up a little drama. The best thing to do in these cases is to revert and ignore. Don't let them get a rise out of you, because that is exactly what they are trying to do. The best places to ask for assistance if the trouble persists are Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts and Wikipedia:Requests for page protection.
On another note, if you do choose to interact with an anonymous IP vandalising your page, it is better to use one of the templates here rather than to write a personal note. The templates serve as formal warnings than can help lead to a block, and they also preclude the possibility that your temper may get the better of you. Does that make sense?
Finally, while you are free to delete whatever you like from your own personal talkpage, it is considered bad form to delete messages you leave others. The preferred method on Wikipedia is to strike withdrawn comments by <s>placing strike tags around them</s> Example.
I hope I've been able to help, Kafka Liz (talk) 13:02, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks again for your constructive advice. Yes, I can see that the vandalism to my pages was indeed the work of trolls. What pests they can be. Next time I won't respond at all.08:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)jeanne (talk)


for the positive feedback at my RFA and for the vote of confidence too, of course. It is nice to have one's contributions appreciated, isn't it? I have seen and respected yours too. Anyway I hope to goof up too badly, too soon! --Slp1 (talk) 13:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

You're more than welcome. I thought the patience and thoroughness you displayed while working on Christian Polak were admirable. You do good work here, and I doubt you'll "goof up." :) Kafka Liz (talk) 10:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Mrs. Pilate Gets GA Status

Hey, I just found out that Pontius Pilate's wife received WP:GA status! Thanks for your input in this endeavor.

If I wasn't a big bully, I could actually cry based on the stress and grief I got in trying to push that damn article along. I am happy that my persistence paid off, but I genuinely wish someone along the line could've said "Thank you, Eco, for believing in this." Oh well, on to other conquests. Ecoleetage (talk) 19:34, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

P.S. In view of your efforts to bring order to that chaotic discussion on Pilate's wife, please accept this token of my appreciation:

  Civility Award
For expecting (nay, demanding!) only the best of editors in a Wikipedia discussion. Ecoleetage (talk) 22:02, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Congratulations on Mrs. P's promotion to GA status! This is excellent news - I know you put a lot of hard work into the article. I'm sorry I wasn't able to offer more help. Once the FA I'm working on is done, I'd still like to see if I can't track down a few more sources for the article, as I am intrigued by the topic. I'll keep you posted on what I find.
Thank you, also, for the barnstar: it's such a lovely surprise to get one. :) Kafka Liz (talk) 11:35, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the kind message. With additional sourcing, perhaps we can promote the article for WP:FA status? Be well! Ecoleetage (talk) 12:15, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
If we can find the sources, we can certainly try. I don't think it'll be easy, though, realistically speaking. Not necessarily impossible, but not easy. Kafka Liz (talk) 15:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Yay for civility

I'd just like to second that civility barnstar you got the other day! --Bonadea (talk) 12:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


Have you seen this: User_talk:Lambiam#Ridiculous_Perspective.3F. Aramgar (talk) 16:13, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes. I've read the whole thing more closely now. I'm holding off editing it until I can write something for the talkpage that's more than just a brief note. I'm a bit crunched for time today and can't get into anything major just yet. Kafka Liz (talk) 17:12, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


  The Barnstar of Cultural Transcendence  
Awarding this barnstar to Liz for her content addition, extensive copy editing, extensive formating, extensive restructuring, and for the many suggestions given along the way in bringing The Garden of Earthly Delights to FA. And for generally being a good 'un. Ceoil (talk) 15:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Aee1980 is back!! :))

Hi Kafka Liz, our dear friend Aee1980 from Komotini is back, under a new name (Bunzo1980 -note the huge difference-) and is actively trying to take a revenge on us. He may soon come into your articles too. Anyways, as I do not know how to report sockpuppetry, I am also sure you could help me with that. He attacked one of my stub articles, List of largest flags because it contained a flag of the TRNC. He was warned for vandalism once, but he managed to convince the person that warned him that "The article was hijacked for political purposes" so the same person posted it for deletion in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of largest flags where he found many people, mainly americans, who did not like the article's shape (well, it's a stub...) that voted for a "delete". The worst, but maybe funniest part is that, he asserted in his comment for deletion that "the author has been involved in similar situations where articles have been modified to promote certain political values" when his account is just 4 days old... Which situations is he talking about? My account is 2 years old and I have never gone political, nor being accused as such, wait... He probably means Komotini, where we cleared, together with you and Aramgar his politcal propaganda.. There he gives away his true persona as Aee1980 :))

You are invited to check for yourself at: List of largest flags and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of largest flags...

I really appreciate your efforts to bring clarity into this very obscure world!

Cheers! --Eae1983 (talk) 22:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Merhaba, Eae1983. I'm sorry not to get back to you sooner - my life's been pretty busy lately. :) Thank you for your nice note. I see that Aee1980 has been blocked as the sockpuppet of a banned user. I was not 100 % certain that Bunzo1980 was the same person -- although I can certainly see why it seemed likely -- and it seems that the checkuser indicates that they are indeed not the same. That said, it is certainly possible that he (or she) is someone's sockpuppet, as they definitely seem to have a certain knowledge of past disputes. Anyway... I'd prefer not to get involved with the flag article. While I appreciate your good intentions, it's my experience that flags and flag articles cause a lot of argument and edit-warring. For me, names are more important. Also, the situation in Northern Cyprus seems extremely complex: I have never been there and don't currently feel qualified to comment. I hope you understand. :) İyi akşamlar (my time), Kafka Liz (talk) 23:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Sistine Chapel

Liz, I'm going to try and tackle the above if you are interested on collebarting again. May a bit ambitious, but we'll see how it goes. All the beast. Ceoil (talk) 12:11, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Symmachi-Nicomachi diptych

  On 16 June, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Symmachi-Nicomachi diptych, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--BorgQueen (talk) 11:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Northern Renaissance

If they're in Category:Early Netherlandish painters, which is a sub-cat, they don't need to be in the NR cat as well. It's a bit different for cats like Category:Arts in the court of Philip the Good as that is a less obvious place to find people. What could usefully be added, to the main cat, or the national subs where they exist, are the national groups of Category:Renaissance humanists. Cheers Johnbod (talk) 01:37, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Done that now. Johnbod (talk) 03:50, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for being patient with me -- I'm new to working with categories on a broader scale like this. What you say makes perfect sense. Kafka Liz (talk) 12:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
No problem at all - it's great to see someone else taking an interest in the poor cats - most of the better editors don't. Johnbod (talk) 12:12, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi liz -

Hi liz, I am satyajit ..I have created the sambalpuri/Koshali page on wikipedia...But off late i found many peoples are writing wrong information on my page and it seems you support them..I have made this page with an intention to let the world know about our culture i.e sambalpuri..This page represents the way of life and culture 2500000 people of whole western orissa but few peoples are trying generalise our culture with them...I did a lot of research and have collected so many information to create this page..but now you people are undo'ing changes made by me...Request you to please let me try to inform the world about our people who are still staying in jungles ..yet to get basic amenities...I hope you will understand me...thanks for your patience... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Satyajit Nayak (talkcontribs) 12:27, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Updated Catullus WikiProject

Hi Liz,

I updated the Catullus WikiProject this morning, which should give us a central location for discussing things and reach consensus. I made sub-pages for the three main issues:

so that newcomers will be able to find out what our consensus is easily. We can add other special topics as needed.

We really could use at least one image for the WikiProject. Have you been able to find something that's not covered by copyright?

I hope you like what you see, and please accept the invitation to join there! :) Willow (talk) 17:28, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up, Willow. :) I will reply here in short order. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:17, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Beware what you want

Or something. Coming soon[2]. Eeek! Ceoil sláinte 02:06, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd noticed you were gone, but I hadn't realised you were dead[3]. Glad you recovered, as 'dead' can often be fairy serious. I expect quite a lot of vandelism with the Garden, give the number of naked people running around in the article, but ach, nothing that can't be handled. Welcome back anyway. ( Ceoil sláinte 23:08, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Catullus images?

Hi Liz,

Have you had any luck in finding apt images for Catullus? I'm just checking in, please don't feel rushed. Oh, you might not have noticed, but our fellow Catullus-friend, Yolgnu, has retired from Wikipedia. :( Willow (talk) 13:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Willow -- Please forgive my belated reply; I've been busy off-wiki beginning a new job, so I had to put Catullus on hold for a bit. I've been on an unannounced wikibreak for the past couple of months and am just beginning to get back into editing again. I do have a list of mss. culled from a critical edition that I believe will be useful. I'm sorry to hear about Yolgnu; being away, I didn't know he had left. Kafka Liz (talk) 11:06, 30 September 2008 (UTC)


Hi Kafka Liz, thank you so much for the kind note on my talk page! I can assure you that there's been no problems, just been on a break. :) I've responded to your E-mail, and I'll thank you here as well for your kind words in that note you sent. Best wishes. Acalamari 16:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Glad to hear you are back, and that all is well. I'm still a bit sporadic, as you can see - new job, family visits eating up my time... :) Kafka Liz (talk) 15:28, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm pleased to see you too. :) I hope everything with your family and work are good. Best wishes. Acalamari 15:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Hello again

Nice to see you back again, and hope all is well and that your new job is suiting you well. You didn't miss much wiki drama during your break, except a lot of srife and the fact that we lost Outriggr to the real world + I still cant spell. Oh well. Ceoil sláinte 16:52, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

He, Who would have thought that the real world could trump Wikipedia As FAR as I can see wikipedia is what happens when there is no real world. Anyway, the amazing library you mention has my interest; could you get a few JSTOR article for me if I asked nicely? Pretty please. Talk later. Ceoil sláinte


Caspar David Friedrich‎. Its almost there, are you on for giving it a push. I reckon Moderinst might go for it, and when it is better, JNW and Johnbod. It was mostly written by Outriggr, and maybe he'll come back to finish it off. Ceoil sláinte 13:26, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Šar Mountains

Hi Liz. Thank you for helping to improve the readability of that talk page :-) However, I took the liberty of modifying the format of your refactoring of Nikola Smolenski's comments. Those elegant quotation boxes gave too much prominence to my comments for my personal taste. I hope you don't mind. - Best regards, Ev (talk) 14:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Of course I don't mind. :) Thank you for your thoughtful and well-reasoned comments. Cheers, Kafka Liz (talk) 14:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Too bad. I was really looking forward to the adrenaline rush of a prolongued talk page edit-war over these details... I guess I'll have to find something else to do during the afternoon. - Best, Ev (talk) 17:20, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Sorry to disappoint. I'm off to ethnically cleanse tzatziki and lahmacun. ;) Kafka Liz (talk) 14:56, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for notification

Didn't have anything to do with barnstar placed on my talkpage (don't believe I've even talked to the contributer before). I'd note FP still managed to bring up my name on the noticeboard though (and not in a flattering manner). FP and I have an ongoing dispute between us. He accuses me of being a trolling nationalist. I accuse him of being an admin in a COI as a major contributer in politically sensitive articles (and especially towards me as I am a constant thorn on his side in those articles) I have a total of 3 blocks on WP... all of which can be directly be traced back to his involvement. (long story for another day or an rfc... if I survive long enough that is :)

Any you recommend that I should I add my two cents on the matter to the notification page? I'm not familiar with WP protocol on closed cases so any advice would be appreciated. Thanks. --Crossthets (talk) 02:08, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Crossthets. The notification wasn't meant as an accusation, just a note to make you aware that your page was the subject of a discussion. As for adding further comments, the general protocol is that closed cases at WP:ANI need no further comment. This isn't a hard and fast rule, of course, but in this instance I don't think you need add anything else. I believe most of the admins involved see it as an issue between Walnutjk and Future Perfect, since you neither posted it nor appeared to have known it was there. Make sense? Kafka Liz (talk) 16:11, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
OK. Thanks for the follow-up Kakfa. --Crossthets (talk) 21:11, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Lady Jane Grey - Personal Attacks

I just found your note re: Incivility on my Talk page. Having abandoned Wikipedia since the exchange with astrologer Jeanne, I had not seen it before now. I do understand and appreciate your concern regarding the level of civility. I have a similar level of concern, but it is in regard to the level of scholarship exhibited in the LJG article. Rather than continue to engage my expertise with her pseudo-science and the ignorance of others, I withdrew from Wikipedia entirely. I return today only because a close friend asked me to me look at something in the article and to answer his question ... OFF Wikipedia ... and I finally saw your message. It takes too much time to battle rampant, willful ignorance, so I no longer have anything to do with Wikipedia. I might note, however, that my research on LJG, especially my research on her date of birth, is now accepted by the academic community and will be referenced in two books on LJG forthcoming ... one from Leanda de Lisle ("The Sisters Who Would Be Queen," due January 2009 in the UK, 2010 in the US) and the other from Eric Ives ("Lady Jane Grey: A Tudor Mystery," due late spring 2009 in the UK). I find it much more satisfying to work among peers rather than deal with the less well informed who too often contribute to Wikipedia (i.e., "Jeanne" and others like her). PhD Historian (talk) 19:17, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

You can email me at Historian at dc dot rr dot com.PhD Historian (talk) 19:32, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

First Crusade featured article review

Hello! Elonka suggested that you might be able to help in getting First Crusade through it's current featured article review. I'd like to help out myself, but my knowledge of the Crusades, other than the Fourth Crusade, is very sketchy indeed. Here's hoping you'll be able to help out. Very best wishes, Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:20, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi Angus! I'm a bit crunched for time this evening, but I'm happy to take a look and do whatever I can. Thank you for letting me know, Kafka Liz (talk) 01:50, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Paul Nash

Hey Liz, that is a beautiful painting, and there are so many more fantastic images directly inspired by Freidrich that I think we could have a very strong daughter article on our hands with ease. Its something we should thrash out on talk. Ceoil sláinte 18:59, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Sounds great. Which Vaughn are you using? The 2004 book has a pretty good section of CDF's legacy in general; it's been a big help. Otherwise I feel like I've missed a lot in the past couple of days... Kafka Liz (talk) 15:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

O nice work. I'm trying to break down the legacy section so we can have more space for general influence, but it need work yet <sight>. You shold push Nash on the talk and see if anybody has further context or souces; other than that hope is all is well. All is well here. Ceoil (talk) 01:25, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

"a day or so to mull it over" is exactly where I'm at too; so much has been thrown up on talk that time out is needed to digest and look into before we can pretend to make sence of it. As for the here talk page stuff; its not like it matters, just the usual 5% idiot fringe that make life typically difficult for the other 95% of us. As my grandmother used to say, "f**k 'em". Ceoil (talk) 02:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Impressive, but I feel confident that my Gran could have taken on your Gran anywhere, any palce, c. 1939. Ceoil (talk) 02:22, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
I'd say the main article, we should let it grow and then spin out. Ceoil (talk) 01:36, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


I know I rely on you quite a lot, but. I have a rather BIG favour to ask. The Lucy poems is comprehensive now, save a few bits and pieces, however it was written by Ottava and myself, and neither of us two gentlemen would identify as good prose writers; to say the least. The focus to date has been on content only, and I plan on spending a few weeks on ce'ing. I suppose your help here would be invaluable if you have time. Either way is ok. Ceoil (talk) 00:14, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

No, copy-editing is a big part of why I'm here, and I'm happy to help (despite fighting an impulse to add an image of this character ;) ). I have a couple of other projects in the works, but I haven't really begun them yet. Is the article pretty much complete, content-wise? Kafka Liz (talk) 00:24, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Content wise: about 80%. I also have to give it a run through for logic, some of the statements are fractured and I need to tidy them up yet. As its an article on poetry, the prose will have to be just so, so help from a skilled copy editor is sorely needed. There is not a hurry with this; it will go through PR and GA before the FA nom - I need to get as much feedback as possible as I am outside my area. Thanks though....Ceoil (talk) 00:34, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Here is a good primer if you do decide to step aboard. It makes me blush listening to this, and I'm not very shy! I love it! Ceoil (talk) 00:39, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Wow... Lovely stuff. Thanks. I'm definitely in. Trying to think what that reminds me of... Kafka Liz (talk) 01:04, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Thats what I think too. The article is a slab of concret yet, but we have a shot at making someting lovely and moving out of it. Ceoil (talk) 01:07, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


It might not be of much help to you now, but I often rely upon Beolingus as a German-English dictionary. It's from the University of Chemnitz, and so is quite reliable... Lithoderm (talk) 00:44, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I'll use it all right. I had a really excellent online dictionary (don't have the link on me -it's at work), but the guy who made it decided to turn it into a salable application. :( One of these days I should actually take a course, I suppose. Thanks! Kafka Liz (talk) 01:08, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Did you already knew that Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz exists in Wikipedia? (By the way, another German-English dictionary is LEO.) --Cyfal (talk) 01:46, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Jeeziz. Consider the day lost in which you learn nothing, as my Latin teacher used to say. I'm sure there's a joke that could be made about the packaging of meat, but I'll refrain ;) I used to use the ARTFL dictionary (retracing my steps), but it seems to be gone now. Thanks for the link. Kafka Liz (talk) 02:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Maine Coon

You're welcome. I have a feeling I'll get a lot of flack from one user in particular that drops in on the article and other users whose images I removed from the article, but hopefully, that won't be the case. Thank you for appreciating it and for the minor copy edit. That sentence was a little funky. ;-) – Ms. Sarita Confer 01:27, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I think you've done an admirable job in trimming the images down. I know everyone wants to see a picture of their own cat in the article, but... it does get a bit unencyclopedic after a while. Thanks again. :) Kafka Liz (talk) 01:33, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi, sorry to bother you, but I am in need of a little advice. As I suspected, two users (whom I suspect are the same person) keep putting a specific image (the Nala.jpg image) into the article without good reason. Should I just let it be? It makes the article look so crummy but I'm so tired of duking it out with these people and I don't want to violate WP:3RR. Any tips? Thanks a lot. – Ms. Sarita Confer 00:53, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

No bother - I noticed this too and will continue to keep an eye on the article. We can always file a sockpuppet or 3RR report if it becomes a serious problem. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:00, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi again! I'm still having issues with a user who keeps incorporating he Nala.jpg image into the article, when it doesn't make much sense. S/he seems hellbent to have their pet in the article. Since you were one of the editors that reverted the image out of the article, might I invite you to come dicuss this so we can put it all to an end and I can finally nominate it for GA status? Thanks! – Ms. Sarita Confer 21:06, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
No worries. I actually made another suggestion at the talk page. Care to take a look and give your opinion? Thanks a bunch and thanks for giving your input on the whole debate. – Ms. Sarita Confer 01:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

November 2008

  Please do not delete content or templates from pages on Wikipedia, as you did to Sicily, without giving a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Your content removal does not appear constructive, and has been reverted. Please make use of the sandbox if you'd like to experiment with test edits. Thank you. Immense sense (talk) 00:57, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Note: the article is a summary of the history, too much focus on one specific section gives an undue weight and thus a bias preference to a sertain time period. This is not how to present a summary history. If you continue to vandalise the article without giving a summary then you will get reported. Immense sense (talk) 00:57, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
It should be also noted that as well as being undue weight, your Islamocentrism in the article does not have any sources in an entire paragraph. I've put your stuff on Emirate of Sicily where such indepth details can be indugled in full detail. - 01:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Immense sense (talkcontribs)
Gennarous: Please do not template the natives. Regards, Aramgar (talk) 01:54, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


  The Barnstar of High Culture
It was just great working with you again on Caspar David Friedrich, Liz, your hard work and talent paid off again! Ceoil (talk) 20:42, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Sheh, thanks. :) Thank you for inviting me to help! As always, you guys did so much hard work before I came along that I'm almost embarrassed.... Kafka Liz (talk) 20:51, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I find recieving complements excruitantly embarrissing, tbh. I think the best policy when they ever do come, is keep your head down and your mouth shut!! ;) Ceoil (talk) 21:30, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
You might get a giggle out of this riculous person[4]. I think his mother needs to sit him down and have a serious chat. Hr's not even that good looking! Ceoil (talk) 21:50, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Its the oh so sincear facial expression, coupled with the lifeless eyes and €400 hair that kills me with these people. And the warbling, the 20 emotives per word: ooo wooaahaahah, Luuuceeeey, woaah waah. Yeah, eh right. Get a job MF, leave the internet in peace. ;) Ceoil (talk) 22:06, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Well I have to say it great to meet somebody who consistently impresses. Back at ya [5] [6]. Ceoil (talk) 22:36, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Caspar David Friedrich

  The Barnstar of High Culture
Congratulations Kafka Liz, For all your hard work on Caspar David Friedrich, your input is greatly appreciated; it's a pleasure to work with you...Modernist (talk) 20:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

This is much deserved Liz....Thanks..Modernist (talk) 20:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Modernist. As I said to Ceoil above, you guys really did the bulk of the work... I'm looking forward to our next project. :) Kafka Liz (talk) 20:53, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
The thing is you make the prose elegant. Modernist and Lith are also good with words, where as I have difficulty spelling 'words'. Your contribution was very significant indeed, as usual. Ceoil (talk) 21:12, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
As Ceoil mentioned your input is both elegant and significant...Modernist (talk) 21:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Thank you both. Your compliments mean a lot, my friends. :) Kafka Liz (talk) 21:29, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the barnstar Liz! And also for your contributions to the article. –Outriggr § 22:39, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Guess who?

Thanks for the Nordic Landscape award. Your good humor was of great benefit to me while working on these articles. I've added the names of both of my alternate accounts to my user-page, FYI. OfOrebOrOfSinai (talk) 22:20, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Ah, you deserved it. You've been excellent to work with; I thought of offering you a three way but figured you probably had enough of them in your current location. ;) Which page is the best to get ahold of you on? Kafka Liz (talk) 22:23, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Ha, both of my socks have User talk:Lithoderm watchilsted, so just leave me messages there. It's a sad, sad story of obsession. I added the wikibreak enforcer, then Created this account to respond to Ceoil on my talk page, then when this account wasn't "established" and I needed to upload images, I pulled out Oreb and used that..... Petropoxy (Lithoderm Proxy) (talk) 22:36, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


"I'd prefer not to use a female portrait". I think now, for that reson, it might be effictive to leave the lead without an image. Ceoil (talk) 02:50, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't mind its being without an image, although I admit it looks a bit naked now. Do you see my point, though, about her... ethereality and formlessness? I don't know if I'm being very clear here. I'm not inflexible on this; it may yet be possible to find the right female figure... I think avoiding faces is key here. There are a couple of Friedrichs that could work, but in each case they aren't quite right. His work captures the right sense of beauty and isolation/separation, though, I think. Kafka Liz (talk) 03:00, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I do see your point, and to be honest I kind of half expected it from you. Wordsworth often projected onto Lucy what was convientent for him at the time, and I agree, yes she should remain faceless. The more I think about it, the more an imageless lead appeals. There would be plent room for paintings in the to come influence and influences sections, but for now lets leave it open. I really like the Whistler, though, it is germain, and it will appear, however I manage to fit into one of the lesser sections! Ceoil (talk) 03:05, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, fair enough. You know I'll tell you if I think it doesn't work. :) By the way, is there anything you particularly recommend I read? I have Murray 1967, Hartman 1964 and a couple of more recent texts. I found I couldn't copyedit this one "cold", as it were. Kafka Liz (talk) 03:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
No it cant be ce'd cold, and I noticed you had been reading up; you did a fantastic job with the lead; im not sure if it was you who added but the phrasing of "imbuing the poems with a melancholy, elegaic tone", and "the eponymous heroine remains physically distant and subtly incorporeal" are just lovely. I sent you a few articles from JSTOR, so Bing! Ceoil (talk) 03:29, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Yep, that was me. :) Thank you, and thanks for the articles. Have you got JSTOR at last, then? Kafka Liz (talk) 03:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
No dont have JSTOR, but have some friends that are ethernal students, bless 'em. They will give me what I want no problem, but its a hard business in Cork to say in a pub, by the way could you send me such and such an article on Wordsworth or Friedrich. That kind of talk could loose you your legs! Ceoil (talk) 03:44, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Sounds like your People's Republic is a bit different mine ;) Kafka Liz (talk) 04:04, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, 101,355 people has Cambridge, Massachusetts. We got us 119,143 souls in Cork (city). You still sure about that lead image? Ceoil (talk) 04:16, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Pong II. Sent you a mail re online resources. Ceoil (talk) 13:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
If you need anymore, I have a copy of everything used in the creation of the page. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:23, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, Ottava. I'll let you know if I have questions or trouble finding a source. :) Kafka Liz (talk) 14:39, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I wanted to mention that the poems are not about Lucy, but about the psychological state of the poet and coping with death. They are also dark because the poet wishes the destruction of the beloved, which has been interpreted as Wordsworth's wish that his sister would be killed in order to unburden himself during a time of severe emotional stress. The Haydon portrait captures Wordsworth in a moment of melancholy, which is one of the few images that most adequately represents what the poem is actually about. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:40, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I can live with that. Perhaps we all revisit this on the article talkpage, for purposes of clarity? Kafka Liz (talk) 14:39, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Sure. I would prefer a portrait of Wordsworth for the top. There aren't many right now on Wikipedia, but there are plenty out there. I'm sure we can find a few. I don't have any books with images of Wordsworth at the moment, so I can't upload any. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:39, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


Sent mail, the gist of which is: "It worked!". Ceoil (talk) 20:15, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I will / are. Ceoil (talk) 23:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


Would you mind keeping your one good eye on Henryk Górecki's FAC. I think you know enough about my editing abalities now to well, know where the fault line can be found (ie I had to go to google to find how "fault" is spllet.) Ceoil (talk) 13:04, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Sure thing. Kafka Liz (talk) 18:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
After years of effort with this, I just need help now. Brian's review was excactly what I was looking for. I hate to overburden a good copyeditor like you about this, but the fact is that copyeditors are so sorely needed and highly valued, people like me will always be making demands of people like you. Drat. Ceoil (talk) 19:12, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Anytime, just ask, and don't feel like you're overburdening me. :) I'll see if I can't dig up some citations, though it sounds as if I'll have my work cut out for me there. Kafka Liz (talk) 12:04, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Would you mind just adding to the userspace page directly. I dont really want to look at what is being done there and dewatchlisted it and dont know what you added. Ta. Ceoil (talk) 20:13, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, of course! Why would you think I wouldn't mind? Ceoil (talk) 20:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, kindly....


Thanks for the three-way, and enjoy- Merry Christmas! Lithoderm 19:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Skopje Airport

It would be advisable to check the article's talk page before you persist with your edit-warring.--Xenovatis (talk) 19:01, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Both of you are editwarring, please stop or you may be blocked for disruption. —— nixeagle 19:03, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
I should point out that Xenovatis created a section on the talk page to discuss the issue. It is at Talk:Skopje_Airport#Name_dispute_issues. —— nixeagle 19:05, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
You guys also look like you are reverting each other at Airport St. Paul the Apostle as well. Please stop. —— nixeagle 19:07, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Xenovatis and Nixeagle. Xenovatis, I have read the talk page, and I'll note that the thread Talk:Skopje_Airport#Name_dispute_issues was added [7]after my second revert [8]; the previous discussions there concern a dispute from nearly two years ago over renaming the article, not over the inclusion of a line identifying Alexander the Great. I stand by my earlier statement that its inclusion is non-essential, since any reader can easily click the Alexander the Great link for further information. The naming dispute is covered in the second paragraph of the lead, and the inclusion of this text in this spot breaks the rhythm of the line and seems to be intended to stir up strife with Macedonian editors. From an encyclopedic standpoint, this not acceptable.Kafka Liz (talk) 19:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Liz, I hope we can discuss and resolve this without further edit warring, of which I have also been guilty.--Xenovatis (talk) 19:34, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

That would be preferable to further sniping in the edit summaries. :)Kafka Liz (talk) 19:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi. For the record, I was not "dragged in" by Aramgar, nor was my participation intended to circumvent 3RR. Precisely because we know each other in real life, we are very conscious of this policy and would never collectively violate it. I stepped in because I thought an uninvolved pair of eyes might be helpful. Kafka Liz (talk) 20:00, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

That is fine, however do realize that tag team reverting is not encouraged and is just as disruptive as if only one person was doing it instead of two. Please be careful and don't test the limit. —— nixeagle 20:07, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Let me just state that user:Aramgar only reverted once. Your intervention has helped calm the spirits of spirited clams. Thank you!--Xenovatis (talk) 20:12, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
(copied from Nixeagle's talk) That is exactly what I said above. No tag teaming was intended; we were not working in concert. Neither of us has any interest in testing limits. Kafka Liz (talk) 20:14, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Xenovatis. What are "spirited clams"? Is that like a quohog, or is it just a typo? ;) Kafka Liz (talk) 20:22, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually I was sort of going for a pun there. Calm spirits vs. spirited clams, see. *sound of crickets chirping*, *twidles thumbs*.--Xenovatis (talk) 20:27, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
  • continuing from talk*
But it would be worthwhile to see this page mk:Александар III Македонски or this one mk:Св. Кирил и Методиј and consider whether Slavomacedonians are really best served by keeping them in the echo chamber they have created for themselves as opposed to helping them face reality.--Xenovatis (talk) 14:57, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm afraid I can't read Macedonian, though I am well aware of the problematic nature of the mk:wiki articles. Even if I could participate, I would probably be banned almost immediately. You might find this thread and this involving administrator Future Perfect at Sunrise of interest, as well as the ensuing discussion on FP's mk userpage. In any case, my main concern is to try to keep the English language articles stable, neutral and concise. Kafka Liz (talk) 16:10, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the info. It is very interesting. Take care.--Xenovatis (talk) 16:16, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Happy holidays

Liz, thanks you for all your help this year, its been a real pleasure to work with you. Here is a nice song for you. Ceoil (talk) 22:08, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Happy holidays, and Have a great New Year...Modernist (talk) 23:24, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

What do you think of the new Lucy lead image? Oh and likewise re colleb, we have a great team here, and I think we are all getting better as we move along. The next project seems to be JNWs The Swimming Hole. Ceoil (talk) 00:18, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

You lost me at six naked men ;0, but its a very interesting back story; the context and all. I think it can be a fine article. Ceoil (talk) 00:44, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
Jump in Liz, the water is fine.....Modernist (talk) 04:17, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
heh heh heh :D Kafka Liz (talk) 13:37, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Happy holidays

Return to the user page of "Kafka Liz/Archive 2".