User talk:Ian Spackman/Archive 1

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For earlier posts see history of User talk:Ian Spackman

Archive 1 Archive 2

User:Ian Spackman/NowrapList/doc

I'm sorry to put this section here, and not leave it somewhere below on this page. This is because of a bug with the newsletter, because of which they cover each other and indeed any other message.

You had some serious problems with template loops on User:Ian Spackman/NowrapList/doc which you wrote. I solved them. I hope this is what you had in mind. Please let me know. Debresser (talk) 20:36, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

You have another template loop on User:Ian Spackman/sand2. I don't know enough about programming - or your intentions with this template, to help out.

Hi Debresser! Sorry not to reply earlier, but I have been away from Wikipedia for a while and only really got back yesterday evening. Thanks for fixing the template loops in User:Ian Spackman/NowrapList/doc. Actually I had forgotten about its existence: the working template exists as {{WrapItemsAfterSeparator}} which is mostly, I think, used by {{Navbox generic lake in Italy}} which in turn is transcluded by a number of Italian Lakes navboxes: {{Lago di Como}}, etc. Interestingly I see that some the documentation is now wrong: some change in the wikitext pre-processor (presumambly) means that when you try to use the heart character (Unicode: 2665) ♥ as the separator it is automagically replaced by a vertical bar. CRIPES! It’s replacing it with a bar here too!
As to {{User:Ian Spackman/sand2}}, I can vaguely recall the purpose of the test: I was planning to meddle with {{Infobox CityIT}}. I don’t know, though, why it’s coming up with ‘Template loop detected: User:Ian Spackman/sand2’ when you invoke it with {{User:Ian Spackman/sand2|province_code=AT|region_code=PMN}}. On the face of it it should call itself once and then return cleanly. Perhaps recursive templates have been banned. Or perhaps my code is wrong. There’s something about our template language that makes anything but the simplest expression suffer from human-unreadability.
Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 00:04, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
I saw your notice about a wikibreak, so I patiently waited for your return. Actually, the second template loop I saw only today.
Yes, recursive templates are not allowed in Wikipedia. I have no idea when that happened, but it's a fact. The obvious solution would be to spread out the task over 2 pages, one calling upon the other.
Alternatively, if you're not interested in it any more, you could delete it by placing {{db-userreq}} on top of it.
BTW, the actual loop becomes visible only when {{User:Ian Spackman/sand2}} is called upon in User:Ian Spackman/sand1. That is strange, because usually the problem shows right away. Debresser (talk) 01:01, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi. May I remind you of that second template loop waiting for a fix? Thank you. Debresser (talk) 21:06, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Oh dear…sure…now no-wikied. Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 22:57, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

You're a hero. Now there's three template loops left on Wikipedia. Debresser (talk)

they got you too, eh?

ah man. i had wanted you to sit in on the discussion on the bolzano talk page. i think it is interesting, even though noclador is losing his top. it is the true sadness of this World, how people want to be in small boxes compartments and not open their eyes to how much richer things are than they wish for.. anyway, see when you get back. i'm still hoping to take an extended break too. Icsunonove (talk) 20:31, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh I’m sure I’ll look in now and again. Obviously I just have! Reverting vandalism from more than ten months ago, showing that none of us has actually read the somewhat major article History of Italy for nearly a year! And, indeed, still haven’t: I just happened to spot it on a new diff from my watchlist. Cheers! Ian Spackman (talk) 21:05, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Sometimes I almost feel Wikipedia should ban all topics regarding politics, history, or even places. :) It can get really depressing see these battles go on where people want to enforce a single narrow cultural POV. I may not be correct with all my opinions, but I do try to actively change my opinions on things as time goes by. I think that is called having an open mind. :) One thing I am convinced with though, is that the narrow-view histories we are often presented with are simply that.. a biased slice. I think Alto Adige/South Tyrol is an excellent example of this extremism -- well, unfortunately, because it is really a place worth focusing on more than just this. :( Icsunonove (talk) 21:14, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Question in Wikipedia talk:IPA for Italian

Hello Ian,
Could you take a look at the question I posted on the page above and see if you could give me a pointer? Thanks a million. Francesco Campelli (talk) 19:49, 3 February 2009 (UTC) Hi Francesco. I really don’t know, I’m afraid. But user:Woodstone’s suggestion seemed a good one to me. Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 09:05, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Obermais / Maia Alta

Hey Ian, I know pretty well, that Merano has a almost equal German/Italian ratio (with a slight German majority). I deleted Maia Alta because:

  • Obermais has a large German majority
  • It's nonsense to list all the time all the alternative names

Then I put Ponte Romano into brackets because i can't find anywhere Bolzano or Bozen, Merano or Meran, Tramin or Termeno, Kaltern or Caldaro and so on... Regards --Mai-Sachme (talk) 21:17, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Readers need to be able to identify places we refer to. Your edit made it harder for them. The town’s council uses both forms: so should we. —Ian Spackman (talk) 12:43, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Tramin and Termeno are both official, but we use just Tramin, Bolzano and Bozen are both official, but we use just Bolzano. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 17:44, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Additionally Maia Alta seems to be rarely used in English: Google Books: 3 hits for "Maia Alta"+because vs 65 hits for Obermais+because, Google Scholar: 0 hits for "Maia Alta"+because vs 7 hits for Obermais+because :You reverted my deletion of Maia Alta with the comment revert tendentious deletion. Actually, I'm just trying to clean up different articles from the excessive use of double names, just becasue I think that articles like this one are pure nonsense and just confusing readers. Regards --Mai-Sachme (talk) 18:01, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Certainly Wikipedia articles can suffer from an excessive amount of pedantry in the first paragraph, and that pedantry is often formed of variant names. But that is not usually a reason to surpress those names: they can be dicussed in a later paragraph or put in a footnote. It is actually very important that an encyclopedia enables its readers easily to discover that Eridanus and Padus refer to the Po for instance.
As to what you are ‘trying to do’, actions speak much louder than words. These are your tendencies.
I have no idea what your various searches for the word ‘because’ have to do with anything.
Grüss Gott, Salve, usw.
The word because makes sure that I really get English books. Without "because" I get results like here, although i set English as language (but actually you can do the test without because as well, the ratio won't change).
Please enlighten me about my tendencies, I'm not really good in decoding what you want to state linking on my contributions. Salve --Mai-Sachme (talk) 01:55, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Reversion at the Milan article

I couldn't help but see my name come up as the version you reverted to. While I often use that "let's cut the crap" method myself, looking at your overall reversion looks to have reinstated some pretty dubious stuff. And reading the context, how does Milan come to be a Celtic name anyway? Weren't they over slaying the Picts at the time?

Anyway, perhaps you could apply your writerly skills to fix up that small bit of messiness? I'll have to give it a shot at some point I suppose, but it would be nice to see someone reliable working on it instead of the succession of IP editors. Regards! Franamax (talk) 20:35, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi! I reverted to your version because it seemed to be the most recent (reasonably!) clean one and I (especially in the absence of my reading glasses) couldn’t quite disentangle the subsequent vandalism from the attempts at partially reverting that, and from the one or more good faith edits. We have many articles with ancient traces of vandalism in them, which become increasingly hard to track down and correct as time passes.
As to the Celtic origins of Mediolanum, I’ve taken a glance at my copy of Lo Zingarelli (2008 edition, p. 2616, s.v. Milano) and see that the best thing they can come up with is indeed a supposition of Celtic origins for the etymology. Unfortunately, until I find my reading glasses, I won’t be able to make out the fine print of the article. (Like you I was surprised and sceptical when I first came across references to Celts in Northern Italy: but it was the Roman Gallia Transpadana, and the Gauls were Celts.) Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 22:44, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Wow, so Asterix and Obelix were actually visiting their brethren when they went to Britain, and when they went to Rome they could have stopped off for some familiar food on the way? Next you'll be telling me that Cleopatra was a second cousin! I'll think about that next time I eat wild boar. :) Franamax (talk) 23:03, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Correct in every respect! But what exactly did they eat on the way? Perhaps ‘violins’. A kind of ham produced from sheep, chamois, but most often goat legs from the Valle Spluga. They are called violins because you hold what is left of the ankle in your left hand, place the haunch on your shoulder, and pare off slivers with a knife and a bowing motion. You think I’m joking of course. But only to the degree that when I saw it demonstrated the haunch was actually placed in the crook of the arm: like a traditional English fiddle player, indeed. Despite the temptation, however, I have never quite dared to turn violin into a disambiguation page. Cuisine of Gallia Cisalpina is a beckoning red-link: but do I have any proof of the antiquity of those violins? No. Ian Spackman (talk) 23:29, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
On Cleopatra, the BBC website came up with some news recently about the discovery of the remains of her sister somewhere in Anatolia. Apparently she had an ‘African’ skeleton and the archaeologists were rather excited about it as it suggested that Cleo herself was likely to have had African ancestry. But (1) I had never imagined that she hadn’t and (2) I just cannot get interested in ethnicity. If pressed hard I will admit to being a (North) Wiltshireman and to being somewhat intrigued by a family tradition that one of my great grandfathers hailed from Scotland; an alternative tradition is that he was born in Bristol and lying.)
Milan prompted those thoughts in fact. Someone with no command of English has been trying to work up a section on ethnic groups. Actually a fruitful topic—it’s a very cosmopolitan city—but it’s frightful muddle because they are basing it purely on istat figures for foreign residents. Setting aside the problem that clandestine foreigners, naturalised immigrants and Italian-born children of immigrants won’t be counted in the statistics, it completely muddies the distinction between nationality and ethnicity. Ian Spackman (talk) 23:55, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

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Biblioteca Estense

Thanks for your edit. Leszek Jańczuk (talk) 19:29, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

And thanks for the article! I suspect we are a little short on articles on Italian libraries. Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 19:49, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

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Milan again

Hi IS, late reply to your response above. I'll try to ignore your outrageous dextrocentricity on the topic of which arm the "violin" should be held in. :) And I actually thought that Cleo was of Greek origin, the dynasties got a little muddled at the end there as I recall. Fortunately I watch the Stargate television series, which offers a much more rational explanation for the origin of the pharoahs. ;) (Although they still haven't explained why their feet always point forwards)

To the matter at hand, rather than continually revert the revolving IP-with-a- agenda at Milan#Demography, I now feel motivated to clean up that section and remove any doubt. To that end, I've initiated a discussion at Talk:Milan/Archive 1#Demography_section_-_National_and_ethnic_groups and also left a note at WP:ITALY. Your input would be appreciated. I quail at the thought that I would be the only one to wield the scalpel, but I do think it's time. Regards! Franamax (talk) 21:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

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Hi Ian, over at Carabinieri a POV warrior keeps inserting a factually wrong, biased and original research based sentence [1] - after his first edit [2] I rewrote the entire paragraph [3]; but well obviously he is stubborn (and I suspect a return of another horrible POV warrior [4][5][6]). Could you please keep an eye on the article too? thanks, --noclador (talk) 17:52, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Sure Noclador, I’ve added the article to my watchlist—though I’m not very active on Wikipedia at the moment. I expect he’ll disappear after a while like the Venetian nutter. Let’s hope so!
By the way, do you know what the insignia which looks a bit like a hand grenade means? I have a soup bowl bought on a market for a couple of thousand lire which must comes from the canteen of the Legione Carabinieri Torino. There the circle—which contains the monogram of Vittorio Emanuele, of course, rather than that of the Repubblica Italiana—is drawn to look rather like a cog wheel.
Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 21:02, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
hmm, "like a hand grenade" first thought: it the Guastatori symbol o Granatieri... difficile a dire se non lo vedo - vai sul sito dell'esercito; la trovi tutti i fregi in uso dell'esercito - e poi mi dimmi quale assomiglia di più. Poi vedrò se posso identificarlo :-) --noclador (talk) 22:49, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

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Copyedit request

Ciao Ian! How are you? I'd ask you to help, if you can, with copyediting my English for my new long article, Duchy of Alvito! Ciao and thanks for help! --'''Attilios''' (talk) 12:02, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

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Hello, Ian Spackman. You have new messages at Drilnoth's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Drilnoth (T • C • L) 15:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

You have been nominated for membership of the Established Editors Association

Sorry to have missed you from the original nomination list. If you disagree with the proposed articles, please feel free to put forward amendments. Peter Damian (talk) 14:26, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

The Established editors association will be a kind of union of who have made substantial and enduring contributions to the encyclopedia for a period of time (say, two years or more). The proposed articles of association are here - suggestions welcome.

If you wish to be elected, please notify me here. If you know of someone else who may be eligible, please nominate them here

Please put all discussion here.Peter Damian (talk) 14:26, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Basilica of Saint Paul Outside the Walls

Thanks, that helps.   Will Beback  talk  08:17, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Good, I’m glad you feel the edit works. Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 10:46, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

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Monferrato Arte website

Hi Ian, Yes, I did see the site - as you say, it's a good resource. I'm aware that Casale Monferrato diocese has 20 parishes in Asti Province. I'm also aware that it has 79 parishes in Alessandria province, with a much smaller number in Turin province: therefore, it logically belongs on the Province of Alessandria page. Do you have any objection to my moving it to that page? Piedmont (talk) 11:17, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

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Slanderous and disgraceful behaviour

Hi Ian, you see it as a slanderous and disgraceful behaviour?? ok, I will put forth how I came to have some suspicions (and if you agree, would like to do it here, to not have this spill into the discussion about the naming convention); but if you should insist; I am also ready to copy this post to over there:
you (and Icsunonove) came first to my attention at the article Steinerner Steg, when you suddenly did an edit [7], which for itself was totally fine. As Icsunonove was clearly damaging the project and massively biased and as Supparluca showed the same behavior, I began to prepare a checkuser request to prove that Icsunonove, Supparluca and I suspected also Piccolo Modificatore Laborioso were one and the same person. While doing that I went through all of Ics edits and in the end the entire case with suspicious users, IPs, plus diffs and diffs, that show a modus of insulting editors with his IPs and then asking them to be civil as Ics, became a 11 page word document.
Near the end I found the first (and per checkuser proved and blocked) sock circus of Ics and to my surprise I found that you by coincidence had registered in very close proximity to the sock circus:

  • 22:29, 10 January 2006 Ian Spackman
and then all these socks
  • 01:58, 11 January 2006 Rossifumi-gp
  • 04:59, 11 January 2006 Jamesbozen
  • 05:24, 11 January 2006 Wikifun-usa
  • 07:01, 11 January 2006 Nospu
  • 07:33, 11 January 2006 Account101
  • 09:00, 11 January 2006 Infinity88
  • 09:16, 11 January 2006 Viewtool

Now I looked at your edits too and found that there is no connection between you and Icsunonove, but one instant when you suddenly entered a Incident report between Rarelibra and Ics [8]. Therefore I decided to add you to the ceckuser request to have proof that you are not related to Ics and his sock-mob. But then Ics, SupparLuca and Co. all disappeared. Therefore I shelved the report, as a checkuser can only be done if the associated vandalism is ongoing (but still keep the file in case the problem resurfaces).
When doing my request to change the naming convention I made an clear error by choosing you as an example to show Ics modus operandi and I hereby fully retract it and excuse myself for it. --noclador (talk) 11:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Apology accepted. I am am sure we must all fall sometimes into the trap of assuming guilt by association. Ian Spackman (talk) 12:43, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

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error in a book

congratulations Ian! you uncovered an error in one of the books you listed :-)

In 1213 the king’s German wife, Gertrude of Meran (now Merano, Italy) was killed by rebellious Magyar nobles.

in fact Gertrude of Merania has absolutely nothing to do with Meran - that is a common error; actually she was a duchess of Merania and a member of a Bavarian noble house, who had gained the newly created Dukedom of Merania in Istria and Dalmatia as compensation for the loss of their former possessions Ostarrîchi (Austria) and Northern Tyrol. Gertrude was born in Andechs (Bavaria) and the closest she and her family came where some possessions around Brixen and castle Ambras near Innsbruck (which was founded by in Berthold III. Cound of Andechs in 1187). So Avner Falk has made a quite common error on mixing up the city, which was never connected with a noble title until 1845, when emperor Ferdinand I of Austria gave the title Count of Meran to the morganatic son of Archduke John of Austria, with the old Merania :-) --noclador (talk) 16:31, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Interesting, and well spotted! Isn’t it frustrating that books are not Wikis where you can instantly correct mistakes. I’d come across that confusion (albeit on a different person, I think), being corrected in another book. By the way, did you happen to look at the article on Tyrol in James Minahan, Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations? I found it interesting. He takes a cultural line, rather than a linguistic one, seeing it as a country of mountain people in which Italian- and German-speaking Tyroleans (he includes Trentino as part of Tyrol) had generally got along pretty well. I found that rather persuasive: it has often struck me that using mountain ridges as dividing lines between nation states is a convenience which discriminates in favour of people of the plains. Once one accepts that there is a France and an Italy and that they share a border, then it will seem obvious to someone in Rome or Paris that the natural boundary is the Alpine watershed. But if I were lucky enough to live in the Piedmontese Alps I imagine I would have much more fellow feeling with my French neighbours than with those people down in Turin who lived their lives very differently. Best wishes, Ian Spackman (talk) 21:54, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
actually we and the people from Trento go very well along even today :-) I think there is much more support and understanding between the people of Trient and the South Tyroleans, than between the South Tyroleans the Italians living in South Tyrol. Probably the root this discrepancy lies in the history of the local Italian people, who move overwhelmingly to the area thirties of last century and now more and more find themselves at the fringes of society (the proportional system of hiring at public agencies has meant that less and less Italians were hired to bring the number of Germans/Italians and Ladins on the public payroll to the exact numbers registered in the census). the military has almost entirely left the province (which hurts me as an Alpino in congedo massively!), young Italians rather move south to the big cities and as many Italians had married South Tyrolean girls (many more than the other way around), nowadays many young people from mixed families (whose members in the province number around 80.000) are opting ever more often to declare themselves German, to have better chances at provincial jobs. so there is a lot of fears that have of lately gripped the Italian community in the province; fears that the people in Trento do not have. The people there have much more issues in common with the South Tyrolean Germans:i.e. traffic, the refusal of the current government to name members to the 6er and 12er commission, attempts by the Ladin comunes of Belluno and Trento to break away and merge with the Ladin comunes of South Tyrol in a new province,... the people from Trento I know are far more leaning towards the German point of view (i.e. the same negative view of the fascist policies of the thirties, or: they are much more ok to use Sudtirolo then Alto Adige)
well, but to tell the truth: what the real problem for me in our province is - is the German right-wing parties! the SVP (like the former DC) is frozen in its nepotism and has created thus an opening for the likes of Knoll, Klotz, Mair, Leitner, and other disgusting people. There strategy is clearly to push the Italians to the edge and increase their fears and humiliate whenever they can, hoping for a violent reaction and thus a possibility for them to call on Austria, the EU and so on, for help for the South Tyrolean people... what makes me nervous: the are succeeding! the ironic thing is: here I try to keep the Italian nationalists away, and on the German wikipedia I am under fire by the German nationalist (and nowadays often far worse people)... anyway, yeah it is a nuisance that we can't instantly correct a book (or a newspaper) but I am hoping for the future :-) cheers, --noclador (talk) 22:23, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for giving me a lot of insights into the current situation, which is clearly far worse than I had realised. Ian Spackman (talk) 23:44, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Young Italy

As far as I know Young Italy is still active, especially through its think tank, the Fondazione Craxi ([9]). I agree anyway with your idea of having Young Italy not more as a redirect but as the page for the Mazzinian movement, but I wouldn't move Young Italy (current) to Young Italy (2004), in line with similar cases with Italian parties and factions. --Checco (talk) 16:55, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


Having looked into your list of sources and having searched for sources myself, I have changed my previous support of Meran and now support your proposal to move the article to Merano. It is a big embarassment for me that I did not check the sources you provided with enough rigour from the start and I can only apologise for the extra time and effort it may have caused you. I would want to congratulate you on remaining factual and polite throughout a discussion that far too often were neither of those things. CheersJdeJ (talk) 20:20, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

No need to apologise! I always thought you were one of the intelligent and decent people in the debate. Last Friday night, I think, I spend some time actually reading the relevant sections of the texts thrown up by a google book search for something like +Merano OR +Meran Italy OR Tyrol and found that the evidence for current English usage was clearer than I had expected. One key thing, of course, was to check the dates when the books were actually written—google doesn’t always tell you that, or even include the relevant page; another was to watch out for translations from German or Italian, because the original usage would tend to be caried over. (There are numerous hits for books published by Touring Club Italiano, for instance. Their Italian language guide books are usually very authoritative, but the translations are often a bit slapdash and clearly not done by mother tongue English speakers.)
Anyway, it’s great that people can consider arguments, check facts and change their minds! Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 21:54, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

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Barbana, Italy

Thank you!--F.giusto (talk) 20:33, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


Whoops - just realized that you were probably just concurrently editing the Ne (GE) article, not reverting my minor changes. Plz pardon my grumpy revert. Cheers, --Wormcast (talk) 12:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I was indeed. No problem! By the way, I have no particular view on the small centred web addresses in the info box template, which is why I haven’t commented. Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 12:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Wikimedia UK Newsletter - July 2009 Issue

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Battle of the Oranges

Re [10]: thanks! Drmies (talk) 20:07, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

No problem: I had long thought it would be fun to have an article on the Ivrea carnival—though the scarcity and price of those delicious Sicilian blood oranges in England does make me a bit dubious about the event! I tried to track down Raineri, conte di Biandrate, too, but couldn’t quickly find enough about him to produce a worthwhile stub. In fact we have no article on the Biandrate in general, who seem to be interesting with power in the Valsesia and (at least at one point) in Vercelli as well as the Novarese. But there are so many articles to be written…. Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 20:23, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Haha, tell me about it. Good luck with it, and I feel your orange-pain (the Florida ones are fine, but not that special). Drmies (talk) 21:07, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Removal of PROD from Docomomo International

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Ciao Ian! Sure, there is no problem... I was replying you when I had to get out suddenly. Did you see also my last, Loggia degli Osii in Milan? Good work! --'''Attilios''' (talk) 21:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Villa d'Este Cernobbio

Hi Ian - great job with the article - congrats! Ma...sei italiano? --ItemirusTalk Page 07:18, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Grazie! Ma non sono italiano, sono Moonraker. Ian Spackman (talk) 07:27, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

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DYK for Battle of the Oranges

  On July 28, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Battle of the Oranges, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 18:08, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi Ian

You removed an external link that I had inserted for Barcis and Dolomites pages, the reasons that you provided to me are valid to a certain extent but you also did not consider the wealth of information that is provided on the website about these local areas. If you implement the rules you defined to me then all external links on both these pages should be removed.


HJOR Hjor (talk) 19:39, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Remember that Wikipedia is not intended as a link directorydmoz does that. And it is certainly not intended as a site for advertising holiday rentals. Like most such sites does contain some relevant information but, I think that describing it as a ‘wealth’ of information is overstating the case by a long way. And the Wikipedia style guidelines on Links normally to be avoided are pretty tough. They begin:
Except for a link to an official page of the article's subject—and not prohibited by restrictions on linking—one should avoid:
1. Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article.
To your second point I will quote from WP:SPAM:
Inclusion of one spam link is not a reason to include another
Many times users can be confused by the removal of spam links because other links that could be construed as spam have been added to the article and not yet removed. The inclusion of a spam link should not be construed as an endorsement of the spam link, nor should it be taken as a reason or excuse to include another.
Still, I don’t pretend to the final arbiter here. If you think that I am being unjust why not bring up the issue on the talk page of the External links WikiProject?
Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 06:46, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


My mistake, things like that are picked up quite often but I usually catch them. Missed that one completely though. —Xezbeth (talk) 14:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

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Bocca Baciata

Thanks for correcting the spelling. I've checked the 2003 Rossetti catalogue and you are right. Do you have evidence that the phrase is a 'proverb' predating Boccaccio, rather than a quotation that has since become proverbial? The catalogue simply states that it comes from the end of the tale. Paul B (talk) 11:10, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

No I have not been able to establish whether the saying predates Boccaccio. He does present it as a traditional one (this is the story of how that saying came about), and that claim seems both plausible and impossible to disprove. (I did spot a reference to B. not having invented it during a google search, but didn’t follow it up, unfortunately. On the other hand, Lo Zingarelli, the main current dictionary of the Italian language, cites this use by Boccaccio for a particular, rare meaning of the word ventura and if an earlier source were known it might have been referred to there.)
By the time Rossetti employed it, though, I think it would have been recognised as proverbial: it appears a little later in an Italian dictionary of proverbs. (The date [1880s?] and source for that I ought to be able to track down in one of the hundred plus unsaved TextEdit windows which have decided to litter my screen.) In the first decade of the twentieth century it appears in another book of proverbs (Giulio Franceschi, Proverbi e modi proverbiali italiani (Milan: Hoepli, 1908) p. 20 (and note)), but ascribed to Boito, who in the meantime had used it in the libretto for Verdi’s Falstaff. Boito very likely did get it from Boccaccio—apparently his text is littered with archaicisms—but it is interesting that the dictionary’s editor didn’t spot the Decameron connection.
So the safest thing to write, in a mid-nineteenth century context, seemed to be to describe it as a proverb which Rossetti (as a student of early Italian literature) had probably taken from B. But obviously you should change that as you think fit!
I hope I didn’t over-load the article with the story of Alatiel. But it seemed worth bringing in to hint at the potentially scandalous (and perhaps humorous) eroticism of the painting. It would be interesting to know what contemporary reviewers made of the choice of title—though of course at that date they might not have known their Boccaccio very well; it was not until 1886 that John Payne, an acquaintance of Rossetti, published the first new complete translation of the Decameron since 1620, and even that was for private circulation.
Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 14:02, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Turin–Genoa railway

Thanks.--Grahame (talk) 11:29, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


Wasn't there a consensus a while back against the creation of frazione stubs like this with only 65 people? The thing is the main comune article is a stub, we should really be focusing on expanding the comune articles... Himalayan 21:01, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I’m not sure there was ever anything as strong as a consensus—there hardly ever is over Italian subjects for some reason—but I do remember FlagSteward merging quite a lot of microstubs into the articles on their communes without anyone complaining.
My current thinking is that stub articles on small settlements in Italy are o.k. as long as either they are at least slightly interesting, or they give the basic data about the place (commune, province, region, elevation, coordinates, population) in a tidy manner. Lenano passes on the second test.
I must say, though, that I do not like infoboxes which are longer than their articles: partly on aesthetic grounds and partly because they give the impression that a small but useful article is deparately in need of expansion. (Conventional encyclopaedias are full of two-sentence articles.) Better to put all the information—save, perhaps, the phone and post codes: who cares?!—into prose and drop in a small location map like the one at Villa del Foro. —Ian Spackman (talk) 07:19, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

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Fratelli Fabbri Editori

Hello Ian,

I apologize if the english translation of the italian original:," does not meet with your specific criteria. This may be due to the fact that I am not the author of the original, simply the translator as well as a Fabbri family member. I appreciate any further assistance working with this page. However I would caution, that altering the text signficantly would not represent a translation but a rewrite and I am not sure that this would be ethical. (Gibi789 21:14, 9 September 2009 (UTC))

Hi Gibi,
Certainly you have nothing to apologise for. I am very happy that you translated the Italian article: it filled in a gap in our coverage of notable Italian publishers and, indeed, it saved me from a job that I would have come to sooner or later! (Remember that it was I who restored it when somebody turned it into a redirect.)
On the ethics of altering translations, we have to bear in mind that Wikipedia articles, whether they are translations or not, are continually being changed. It’s how articles are developed. This is why out articles—including those here and those in the Italian edition—are published under Creative Commons licenses, which means (roughly speaking) that as long as attribution is given the texts may be modified however is seen fit. The Fratelli Fabbri article states that it ‘originated as a translation of its counterpart on the Italian Wikipedia’, which satisfies those conditions.
I see that you have been working at improving the sourcing of the article. That’s very good: unfortunately the Italian Wikipedia is not always very scrupulous at providing references, which is one of the reasons why, even once translated, they tend to need a fair amount of work.
I’ll try to have anther look at the article tomorrow. Best wishes, Ian Spackman (talk) 00:53, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Reverts of Latin river names

I noticed that you reverted a number of my edits of Latin river name redirects. What I was doing was adding the "Rivers of Italy" category to all the modern Italian river articles the redirects point to and deleting the redundant "Rivers of Italy" category from the redirects since they are no longer needed. It doesn't make sense to me to use this category for the same river twice (once for the modern river article and once for the Latin river name redirect). Because of this, I think you (or myself if you prefer) should revert the reverts. If you disagree, let's discuss it further here.-Schnurrbart (talk) 20:55, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I disagree, of course! The point of the category Rivers of Italy is that is an index for the benefit of our readers. If they come across a (partly) Italian river called the Isonzo in something they are reading, they ought to be able to find our article under that name in the category listing. We cannot expect them to know that it is the same river as the Soča—not before they have read the article. Similarly with the Tevere which they might come across somewhere. So the category has to include Isarco as well as Eisack, Tevere as well as Tiber, Roia as well as Roya. I would say it should for the same reason have Padus as well as Po. It is very common for indexes to books to do something similar: ‘Farnese, Alessandro Cardinal see Paul II, Pope’ is an example from the book on the top of my pile.
If, for some reason, a reader is opening each of the articles in turn—which is the advantage I can think to having each river appear once only in the list—all they have to do is to skip the redirects, which are italicised.
Seems logical to me, anyway. What do you think? Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 01:29, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Hello There Sir...

Hi there! I saw you did the translation for the Giovanni Arpino page... now, this is just a shot in the dark, but I'm trying to find more information on the man and it's surprisingly difficult to do, especially since I can't read Italian. I was wondering if you had any sort of knowledge about the author? —Preceding unsigned comment added by JMoMo (talkcontribs) 08:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

My ignorance is profound, I am afraid—and I’d not only forgotten doing that translation but I had to read the article in order to remember who he was. The following three-page article available on Google Books might be a useful place to start, though (with a posh citation format so that I can add it to the further reading sectio of our piece): Mariano D’Amora, ‘Giovanni Arpino’ in Encyclopedia of Italian literary studies, ed. by Gaetana Marrone and others, 2 vols (New York; London: Routledge, 2007) II, 95–97.
Good luck with your researches, and do of course add what you discover to our article. Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 17:55, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you my friend, you truly are a gentleman! :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 00:10, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


You might be interested in commenting here. Thanks! Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 15:21, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Addition of various external links to sites

Hallo Ian I would like to know why did you remove the link to my free travel guide to Spoleto in Umbria.Our Umbria travel guide is free of ads, Umbria region is paying us give this guide to the internet community for free.

I m sure we are not breaking any Wikipedia Rule. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bydivino (talkcontribs) 15:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi Bydivino! Have you read WP:EL yet? It gives the low-down on Wikipedia guidelines for the inclusion of external links. Bear in mind that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia; it is not intended to be a directory of links, however interesting they may be. Dmoz perfoms that task, and you might wish to consider that site as a means of drawing attention to your websites. [You mentioned Spoleto, but that is only one of the many links to your sites that have been added to numerous articles.] When you do read (or re-read) WP:EL, examples of passages you might wish to ponder include:
Links normally to be avoided: Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article. <WP:ELNO>
Advertising and conflicts of interest: …in line with Wikipedia policies, you should avoid linking to a site that you own, maintain, or represent—even if WP guidelines seem to imply that it may otherwise be linked. When in doubt, you may go to the talk page and let another editor decide. <WP:EL#ADV>
If you have good encyclopedic information on places in Italy—as I am sure you do—then you might be interested in improving our articles by adding the information to them. Of course it will need to be reliably sourced and not in violation of any copyrights—and it is harder work than merely adding links to your own web pages. But you might find it a more rewarding activity. We would certainly find it more productive.
Best wishes, Ian Spackman (talk) 06:43, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi Spackman, first of all thanks for your reply, I have read WP:EL but I' m still thinking that I do not breake any roule when I link from wikipedia,

Please consider that this guide is free travel guide, with good content and it does not breake any copyrigth. The travel guide does not have any link to hotels or anything comercial, it is just good information for travelers about monuments what to see and what to visit.

A part from that you keep in the page of Spoleto links that are comercial or not working such as,, I think my site is much better and if it breake any rule, for sure it breake less roules that the ones you keeps.

Please consider again that is something financed by the Umbria Region to help travelers to know best this part of Italy, free content for everybody like wikipedia.

Best Regards

G 07:42, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bydivino (talkcontribs) 07:42, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

As you certainly know from WP:EL, in line with Wikipedia policies ‘you should avoid linking to a site that you own, maintain, or represent’. So I suggest that you go to the Spoleto talk page and make out the case that your material on Spoleto provides ‘a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article.’
My own view is that your two short pages on Spoleto are nicely designed, written in somewhat better English than many Italian tourism sites, and pleasantly free from advertising. However, they add very little to our article—apart from tourist advice on where to eat, etc., which is not the concern of an encyclopedia—and nothing relevant which ours would not contain if it became a featured article. But of course other editors might take a more charitable view.
Needless to say, the same advice applies to the various articles on other places in Umbria, Sicily and the Amalfi coast where you might wish to introduce external links to your sites.
By the way, please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~) in a row like this: ~~~~.
Best wishes, Ian Spackman (talk) 08:38, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Actually, the page on Spoleto from the Regione Umbria itself is better written and more informative. One does rather wonder what they are paying you for. Ian Spackman (talk) 08:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Note to onlookers Current links from Wikipedia to by-divino sites can be identified from these links:

Hi Spackman

thanks for your reply again please let me ask you a last question, if you do not accept our sites why do you accept,,

or for exemple in the page of Furore this link

These webs are using wikipedia to sell and you acept them.

Our free travel guides do not sell anything are only useful for travelers and public financed and you not accept them. I belive you 're doing an injustice.

Thanks again for your time and patience

Best regards


I am still wainting your reply

best regards


You might be interested in commenting here. Thanks! Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 14:08, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


HI, I've just expanded Acerno. Howver, Iam not fluent in Italian, could you proof read it and check it with this and add any missing info/correct it. Shouldn't take you 5 mins, I have nominated it for a DYK BTW. Himalayan 19:00, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Hello! I have had a quick glance, followed by a good deal more than five minutes spent killing off the local saint. I am afraid he was begotten of a translation muddle. That’s very likely how a lot of small town saints were invented a thousand years ago—and it was very tempting to leave him in the article just to see how long it would take for the cultus of Sant’Acero to spread. I do hope he’s not the subject of the DYK! I’ll try to look over the rest tomorrow, but I’ll be in London most of the day, so that might mean Monday. In the meantime you might ask Attilios to look at it: he would know more about the place than I do. Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 23:44, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I have asked Attilios too. Thanks for your corrections, I knew there was something not quite right, it mostly seems OK though but some things don't translate too well.. Himalayan 08:47, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

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editing sassuolo

Thanks for editing article about Sassuolo.

I` m gathering information to create page with name Ceramic District of Sassuolo ( something like this) in Italian it would be (Comprensorio Ceramico di Sassuolo) could I have your opinion about this, please, probably I will need help and supervising of somebody with more experience than mine.

What can you say about my corrections to oher pages Fiorano Modenese and Serramazzoni - am I in a right way ?


--Italiamoderna (talk) 13:46, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

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Domenico Carafa della Spina di Traetto

Hi. Thanks for moving the page; good call. I'm actually in the process of trying to create biographical articles for each Camerlengo of the Sacred College of Cardinals from 1855 to 1875 (for some reason the only group consistently without articles). You seem to have a knack for Italian:English translation - please feel free to correct any obvious mistakes I make. Thanks for your help; much appreciated. Stalwart111 (talk) 22:20, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

No problem: other people’s typos are much easy to spot than one’s own. (Motes and beams spring to mind.) If you would like me to galnce through the articles—I won’t have much to offer except a second pair of eyes—let me know when you have done a few. Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 08:07, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

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Italian comune articles

As of this moment the 8100 articles transcluding {{Infobox Italian comune}} exactly matches List of Italian communes (2009). It took a few months, but my first two passes are now complete. I wrote a PerlWikipedia script to translate infoboxes from the Italian wikipedia and paste them into the articles missing infoboxes, so the process was relatively painless (just a bit slow to complete). Let me know if I missed something (not that I am particularly looking for new tasks after this one). My to do list is still full. Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 00:20, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Brilliant work Plastikspork! (So my watchlist will now return to normal.) I’ll try not to think up any new tasks, but I don’t promise to succeed. Best wishes, Ian Spackman (talk) 13:30, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

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Holy Ampulla

The problem you commented on in this article has I hope been sorted out. I believe this agrees with the fr:wikipedia article which though shorter than the English includes extra information.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 10:23, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Quick work! Thank you. Ian Spackman (talk) 10:25, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

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for the ... in italy

Hi Ian Spackman. I noticed that you know a few of my [date] in italy pages. I am starting them since Italy suprising doesn't have these pages, unlike most other nations, such as France or the UK. Since there are so many from the 1300s to 2009 (of course, you can't do every year), I would appreciate if you could help me do some dates in the 1400s, 1500s or whatever, according to your knowledge. Please reply and if you do help me, thank you--Theologiae (talk) 19:34, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually I was on the point of leaving you a message encouraging you to work on those articles: you certainly have the energy, enthusiasm and interest in Italy to do a sound job of it. What I would suggest is that you gather some sources, and draw up a list by year of what seems interesting. That way you will be able to provide proper citations as you go, and you won’t be limited to people and events on which Wikipedia already has an article. (Though obviously you will make use of the existing year categories, too.) A quick Google search suggests that these would be promising, though no doubt you will find others:
Come to think of it, the search I made was for ‘cronologia’, ‘Italia’ and ‘storia’, so I missed all the English-language chronologies, which I am sure you will be able to find at the sites of various university departments of Italian Studies and so forth.
Another thing you could do, of course, is to work your way through existing articles—which should provide the sources you need—and pull out events by year. Those could include overview articles, which should help sort out the wheat from the chaff, or relevant list articles (battles or whatever). Also, of course, you could work you way through some of the biographical sub-categories of Category:Italian people (Category:Italian people by century, for instance, or Category:Italian saints) and pull out the (sourced) dates of birth and death from the articles. Or do the same with Category:Italian-language operas and find the dates and places where they were first performed.
One other thing—I would suggest looking at the parallel year-articles for other countries and devise an overall style to follow. And you may find that, rather than having an individual article for each year, redirecting each year to a decade article is more appropriate. 1217 in England, for instance redirects to 1210s in England which seems to be a useful page.
I’m afraid I won’t have time to write any of those articles in the short or medium term—I have too many tasks on the back-burner at the moment which I really should get back to! But you might like to invite contributions from WP:ITALY.
Best wishes with the project! Ian Spackman (talk) 21:55, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Thank you, Ian! Just one thing that I'm still not so sure of is how to redirect. How do you do it, since it would be very handy! Also, I shall do my best to continue these article, but I'm actually starting to get busy in real life, so I'll do what I can. Thnaks a great deal for the refs, anyway! I just asked you the question 'cause I noticed you know a lot of my new articles. Anyway, cheers and reply!--Theologiae (talk) 09:31, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Help:Redirect and WP:REDIR give all the gory details but, in essence, if you have a page called 1510s in Italy and you want 1519 in Italy to redirect to it, all you have to do is create the page 1519 in Italy with the content
#REDIRECT [[1510s in Italy]]
Yes, I do see a lot of your work: I seem to have about 10,000 articles (mostly on Italian subjects) in my watchlist, and most days I check User:AlexNewArtBot/ItalySearchResult to see if there interesting new articles.
Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 10:16, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for all you've done to help, and ciao!--Theologiae (talk) 11:12, 3 January 2010 (UTC)


In my opinion neither personal POV nor negligible ideas were expressed. Why did you revert the article?

You reverted fairly neutral issues and even correction of mistakes without discussing them.

The previous version was even wrong or incomplete.

For example Romagna is an European Region not just because its meaning matches at the same time a territory belonging to different European states, but also because shares European mainstream as a whole.

Romagna is not a part of Italy as a state. San Marino has got the remaining part!!! We can discuss about Italian culture and language. Romagna has a more homogeneous background than Italy because of its peculiar history (that is an opinion) (the period of "stanstill" 1512-1860 accounts 350 years of administrative stability - that is a fact). No war means that people are more linked to the territory and have common cultural background. Of course things have been changing in the last century. Do you share my POVs?

Could you detail your objection? Otherwise,there is no reason for your behaviour.

Thanks in advance for your attention.

Thanks User:Alberto bazzi 11:52, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

About Italian design in Italy

Hello Ian! I just noticed that you deleted my Italian design paragraph on the Italy page. As a matter of fact, I was rushing when I added it, so I had little time to re-read it and etc. I know you say it sounds promotional, but Luigi Caccia's quote is true (it's not a made up quote) and I gave a ref for it. I will try to re-write the design section now, okay... reply--Theologiae (talk) 10:07, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I have no doubt that Caccia is correctly quoted: but that doesn’t make it a neutral evaluation which we should suggest is correct! Look, when you are in a hurry, just save what you’ve written on your hard disk. You can read it through later and make appropriate adjustments before saving edits toi the actual article. Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 10:44, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your help on Castelnuovo

I freely admit to being clueless in Italian so all I have had to go on in making this page comply with disambiguation guidelines is the leads of the articles. Your help in getting the phrasing correct has been great.

--MegaSloth (talk) 20:20, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, thank you: I am always pleased to see disambig pages done properly. One thing that worries me slightly about dab pages involving Italian towns and villages, though, is the words comune and frazione—which nearly always appear, and which hardly any readers will understand. My personal practice is to ignore all rules and link the first appearance of each term, as an aid to readers who may [or must] be puzzled. I suppose that it’s enough in the case of comune, simply to gloss as ‘(i.e commune or municipality)’ and I guess I’ll do that in future. Trying to avoid the word frazione altogether is sound practice, even if entails a slight loss of precision:
But when the word seems unavoidable I think I will continue to link it. Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk)

just curious

Why you removed your own comments at the Raphael discussion page?

It's a pessimism/optimism thing: I've taught middle school, high school, and university, and spent from kindergarten to M.A. 20 straight years in American schools. I know all about the deficiencies of the American system. But rather than look at it that way, I would rather look at it as "at least something introduces children to the great Italian artists, is it so awful that it's the Ninja Turtles?" Really is a mutant ninja turtle so different than Big Bird or some other puppet used to educate children? Besides, the ninja turtles were good guys, always being nice to women and trying to save the world, or at least the sewer.

You know I don't really care if the turtles are mentioned in the Raphael page and I don't much care one way or the other about Raphael, I'd take Bernini over him any day. I only came to that page because I think that the Latin epitaph written by Petrus Bembus is one of the most gorgeous elegiacs ever written and I was copy-pasting to la:Epitaphium. But I figured I'd write you a note when I saw your comments and then your own retraction.


--Ioscius (talk) 18:33, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah. In a way you have answered your own question; that is to say we probably agree. I responded quickly and irritably and then thought: ‘Oh hell, I’m being stupidly pompous and stuffy’. And indeed ignorantly anti-American. So I retracted. By the way, I have never heard of Big Bird, but I do remember from my childhood reading about a big and benevolent bird in The Hobbit. I expect they are related! Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 20:33, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Us Americans aren't all bad, man, I promise. --Ioscius (talk) 22:02, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Indeed they are not!Ian Spackman (talk) 08:37, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Pictures in Milan

Ian, I noticed you changed some pictures in the Milan, and that's fine, but some of them were also there for scenographic effects. I.e. the picture of the cenacolo is art, but is such an important Milanese landmark that should go in main sights (but I see you renamed it to Architecture). Anyway, cheers and reply--Theologiae (talk) 15:36, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

No I didn’t rename the section, and it is still a sub-section of the (rather idiotically named) Milan#Main sights. On the images, however, this is an encyclopaedia, not a child’s picture book, or a promotional brochure, and illustrations primarily serve to support the text, not to be scenographic. If there are copies on Commons (I haven’t checked) of Leonardo’s numerous sketches of imagined centrally planned churches from that period, then a scan of a page of those would work very well in the architecture section. But the Last Supper is too peripheral, I fear. Not that I am against the painting, you understand! Ian Spackman (talk) 17:02, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
I realise that this is an encylopaedia, and I know it isn't a holiday brochure, but beautiful images make the text more enjoyable to read. Anyway, do you think that we should have two different sections, one called architecture and main sights, since there's a big difference (main sights describes Milan's major landmarks, architecture instead talks about the history of building in the city), but the main sights is a bit of a mix between architecture and main sights. The last supper is too peripheral for main sights, but is arguably Milan's greatest and most iconic landmark, so a picture of it should definitely be put somewhere in the page. Anyway, reply by telling me your thoughts.--Theologiae (talk) 17:10, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
I agree that the painting should be somewhere on the page: where it is covered in the text, which presumably is in the section on painting and the visual arts. As for a new major landmarks section, I am not sure: perhaps it would be better to briefly enumerate the principal tourist attractions as part of the Tourism section? (I’d not at all be against restructuring the page more radially, but it would need careful thought, and we would want to make sure that the page didn’t become too long as a result.) Ian Spackman (talk) 22:28, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but read more carefully

I know that the UNESCO website is copyright, but I was quoting it, so according to wikipedia, you can quote any website, public domain or not, just in condition that you say it's a quote, you give attribution and you make sure it is evident. So, technically, I didn't do anything wrong. Reply--Theologiae (talk) 14:14, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

That seems to me to be a very liberal interpretation of fair use. But I may be wrong. Can you point to the relevant policy? Ian Spackman (talk) 16:29, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Also, by the way, I noticed you deleted a lot of info from Veneto. I forgot about the Italian bit, but don't just delete it all! The section on UNESCO was accurate, and did not breach copyright laws, the section on minor cities of art was translated, so I'll be adding some back.--Theologiae (talk) 14:20, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Might you perhaps be responsible for any of the following? It all comes from [[11]]. Please read, and attempt to understand, every word before considering whether such writing is likely to help the reader to gain an understanding of art and architecture in the Veneto, or whether they are more likely to give up on the article—and perhaps on the ecyclopaedia in its entirety—in disgust at the contempt with which they are being treated by Wikipedia’s authors:
Titian, born in Belluno Pieve di Cadore, brought forward the use of this technique without pictorial design, creating masterpieces such as' Assumption (1516 - 1518), altar by imposing size visible on the main altar of the Basilica of Santa Maria Gloriosa dei Frari in Venice, a work whose suggestion is due to the use of color in which predominate hotly debated.
While in the Veneto that the tax remains Byzantine, an element of innovation is brought to Padua by Giotto
Toward the 1302 was commissioned by the bank Enrico Scrovegni to paint the family chapel
The Renaissance will be in Padua its cradle where Venetian grow and develop.
Phase succesivavide starring Giorgione, Titian, Sebastiano del Piombo and Lorenzo Lotto.
shifting the emphasis from the pursuit of perfection arts
James Strong said the Tintoretto (1518 - 1594) takes over the Roman Mannerism, but recasts in typical Venetian use of color, highlighting the bright prospects for its operations, giving unusual, sometimes true perspective deformations
Born in Padua in 1508 and died in 1580, Andrea Palladio is l 'architect most famous in the world. Among his works are primarily the many villas, located in the countryside between the provinces of Vicenza, Padua and Treviso and asked Venice ne of St. George, that of the Redeemer, and Zitelle the island of Giudecca.
Palladian architecture incorporates the grounds of classical Roman villas that recall the forms of weather to create masterpieces such as Villa Emo, Villa Barbaro, Villa Capra "La Almerico Round Villa Foscari called the Malcontenta.
By Tiepolo, in fact, the prospect is forced to beyond the usual limits, painting ceilings figures taken from the bottom in a movement that makes it spectacular.
Coming to miss a major center after the fall of the Venice, every city has declined the second variant own art and specific models.
Among the many artists Guglielmo Ciardi, which incorporates the experience of macchiaioli uniting the color typical of classic Venetian school, bringing out from his paintings a chromatic essence, Giacomo Favretto: too as Ciardi, enhances the color, sometimes very pronounced, Frederick Zandomeneghi, painter who deviates from the tradition of Venetian coloring, to venture in a style typical French impressionist style, Luigi Nono, which in his works come to feel realistic, even if, in addition to painting genre scenes, portraits of fine is imposed for psychological description.
Of course I don’t know whether you are a schoolchild – but if not, try to remember your schooldays. How would your teacher respond to such writing? Ian Spackman (talk) 16:29, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
I get your point, and you're totally right, but what can you do if there's important info which can be translated? Look, I'm not an expert in Italian (I speak a bit, but not tonnes), and worse I'm relativey bad at translating, so I often have to use the Google translator. Thus, what i've done is translate poorly from the it:Veneto, and put the tag {{proofreader needed}}. I know that a person who has just learnt to use wikipedia might be put off by the bad english, but unfortunately some things take priority, and if they read carefully, they'd see that on the top it says to translate better. Anyway, you could advise or help yourself in translating bits better. Reply and tell me your thoughts--Theologiae (talk) 16:47, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for being so understanding in response to what may have been excessively pain speaking on my part. One thing to bear in mind is that, although there is lots of stuff left to be done on Wikipedia—and the gaps in coverage sometimes seem to yawn grotesquely—none of us can do all of it. A lot of it will just have to wait. What takes priority is having articles which are useful to our readers and it’s much more productive, I think, to spend one’s time doing one thing decently than doing ten things badly. You’ll have made a decent job of filling in one gap and sooner or later someone will deal with the other nine.Ian Spackman (talk) 18:29, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
If you think an article will benefit from importing translated text from another Wikipedia then you can write a section stub in decent English and add {{Expand Italian}} in the hope that you will attract a translator who is interested in doing it. But please don’t put in a machine translation: read the article Wikipedia:Translation, including the section ‘How to translate’ which advises (in bold) that an unedited machine translation, left as a Wikipedia article, is worse than nothing. The template will automatically provide a link to the Google translation which the translator can use if s/he finds it helpful. Ian Spackman (talk) 18:29, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Actually, now i've translated it better and re-instated it in the article.--Theologiae (talk) 17:11, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Better, certainly, but what do you understand by ‘James Strong said the Tintoretto…’ (James Strong is an art historian, perhaps?), or ‘Jacopo da Ponte said Bass’ (a pronunciation guide?) or ‘Sue was part of the decoration of Palazzo Ducale’ (Sue was an artist’s model?) Or indeed ‘Palladian architecture incorporates the grounds of classical Roman villas that recall the forms of weather to create masterpieces such as Villa Emo, Villa Barbaro, Villa Capra "La Almerico Round Villa Foscari called the Malcontenta.’ Please read through and try again. :-) Ian Spackman (talk) 18:29, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Lists of neighbouring communes

Thread partly copied from User talk:Attilios

Attilio, My watchlist keeps showing you removing these lists from articles: e.g. here. Personally I find them useful. What is your reasoning? Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 15:08, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

And here andhere for instance. Are these just random deletions, which I should obviously revert (if I had the time to spare), or are they somehow intended to improve the articles? And if the latter, how do you think they are improvements? Ian Spackman (talk) 15:50, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Ciao Ian! No, the deletions goes automatical in my mind as I got robotic in the host of changes I'm making in Italian communes articles lately
(especially after some deletionist have removed ALL coat of arms!!!). Promise no more to delete the communal list. Ciao and good work!! --'''Attilios''' (talk) 16:22, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes, that makes sense Attilios. (And having all those coats of arms deleted must have been terribly annoying.) Keep up the good work! Ian Spackman (talk) 12:12, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Unreferenced BLPs

  Hello Ian Spackman! Thank you for your contributions. I am a bot alerting you that 2 of the articles that you created are tagged as Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons. The biographies of living persons policy requires that all personal or potentially controversial information be sourced. In addition, to ensure verifiability, all biographies should be based on reliable sources. If you were to bring these articles up to standards, it would greatly help us with the current 1,787 article backlog. Once the articles are adequately referenced, please remove the {{unreferencedBLP}} tag. Here is the list:

  1. Alviero Martini - Find sources: Google (books · news · newspapers · scholar · free images · WP refs· FENS · JSTOR · NYT · TWL
  2. Raffaele La Capria - Find sources: Google (books · news · newspapers · scholar · free images · WP refs· FENS · JSTOR · NYT · TWL

Thanks!--DASHBot (talk) 12:43, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

User talk:Ian Spackman/Fiume

I see that although User:Ian Spackman/Fiume was deleted at your request, its talk page was not.

Before I do so, could you just confirm that you wish it to be deleted? (Just reply here, this page is on my watchlist!)

Regards, -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 17:58, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Sharp eyes Steve! (Do all phantoms have them I wonder?) Sure, it can go. Thanks! Ian Spackman (talk) 18:03, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
It was deleted about the same time as you typed that, but not by me! Anyway, thanks for replying so quickly -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 18:25, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion

 A template you created has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. –xenotalk 14:11, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Begin-stub-templates

 Template:Begin-stub-templates has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. -— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 21:26, 20 March 2010 (UTC)


Hi Ian. I'm just here to say that today (April 17th), I will retire as a wikipedia editor. It has been a great experience, yet it is time for me to move on. Thank you for having been so helpful with editing.

Goodbye, and good luck!--Theologiae (talk) 13:42, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi Theo. I shall miss the energy and enthusiasm you brought to Italian topics, and wish you all the best for your future projects. And thanks for dropping by to say goodbye!. Best wishes, Ian Spackman (talk) 04:33, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for the goodbye! I'll just remember your constant cleaning-up of my articles so that if I created them in a rush, you'd make sure they were of decent quality. Yes, this is not to say I will never edit wikipedia again. I probably might edit in a few occasions, yet far more rarely (as in, more rather semi-retired). Thanks for the nice message. Cheers--Theologiae (talk) 06:28, 18 April 2010 (UTC)


Hi, Ian. You should Google search Marubbi: although he was born in Italy, he is considered an Albanian photographer. Stupidus Maximus (talk) 20:17, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi, Stu, thanks for the correction! I had just gone on the first sentence of the article, which defined him first of all as ‘an Italian painter and photographer’. I’ve changed that to ‘an Italian-born Albanian painter and photographer’, and also put him into Category:Albanian photographers. But I think he should remain in Category:Italian photographers as well: people looking at the category ought to be able to discover this interesting figure who was an Italian photographer, as well as an Albanian one. Hope that’s o.k. by you – but do just change anything in the article you think is wrong.
It would be good if we could get some of his images onto Commons, and into the article: they’re obviously out of copyright and would be a terribly good resource.
Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 07:47, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi (the return)

I posted some interesting pics, on Commons. Among them, a beggar, and a black boy wearing the Fustanella. Maybe you can 'watch' me. I don't know if they show. Stupidus Maximus (talk) 20:21, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Splendid! I think, in fact though, that you uploaded them to, rather than to Commons. This means that although they are available for use in the English language Wikipedia—and yes they are showing up—they are not available in the other Wikipedias. There is one important point to note, though, whether you leave them where they are or upload them to Commons: they will need license tags. As far as I can tell the applicable law for Albanian works to be in the Public domain is that the author (or in this case photographer) must have died at least seventy years ago; or in the case of anonymous works that they must have been first published at least 70 years ago. Marubi died in 1903, so all his works will certainly be in the public domain and you can add the {{PD-old}} template to the files, together with a note of when he died. I've done this for File:U1 lypsi.JPG.
Do feel free to ask me any further questions–I’ll try to answer them. Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 22:18, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Archdiocese of Milan

I'm having trouble understanding why your addition of a listing (no links, either to Wikipedia or to external sites) of the 1104 parishes of the Archdiocese of Milan is not a violation of WP:NOTDIRECTORY. Please explain when you get the chance. Thanks! (talk) 16:52, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:C'era due volte il barone Lamberto.jpg

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Non-free use disputed for File:C'era_due_volte_il_barone_Lamberto.jpg

Thanks for uploading File:C'era_due_volte_il_barone_Lamberto.jpg. Unfortunately, I think that you have not provided a proper rationale for using this image under "fair use". Please read the instructions at Wikipedia:Non-free content carefully, then go to the image description page and clarify why you think the image qualifies for fair use. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page. Note that the image description page must include the exact name or a link to each article the image is used in and a separate rationale for each one. (If a link is used, automated processes may improperly add the related tag to the image. Please change the fair use template to refer to the exact name, if you see this warning.)

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No coincident interests for a long time...

...and then I saw you'd expressed a view about the deletion of Amanda Knox! I made the mistake of getting interested in the Murder of Meredith Kercher article and have wasted a huge amount of time trying to improve it. A separate Amanda Knox article is hardly going to help! Perhaps its time to get back to Davy Graham, Pentangle and all my guitar heroes. Cheers! Bluewave (talk) 11:06, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

You are now a Reviewer

Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, will be commencing a two-month trial at approximately 23:00, 2010 June 15 (UTC).

Reviewers can review edits made by users who are not autoconfirmed to articles placed under flagged protection. Flagged protection is applied to only a small number of articles, similarly to how semi-protection is applied but in a more controlled way for the trial.

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Wikipedia:WikiProject Buckinghamshire

Hi, I have made a start at reactivating WikiProject Buckinghamshire after a short break. I am in the process of working on the front page at User:Roleplayer/Sandbox to make it more attractive and easier to navigate. My aim is to make the project a reference point for editors creating or working on Buckinghamshire-related articles.

A couple of days ago I moved anyone who hadn't edited the project in a while from the current members list to an inactive members list, and this includes you. If you are still interested in the project, or are still regularly updating Buckinghamshire articles then please move your name back to the current list (remembering to keep entries in alphabetic order). If you are no longer interested in this project, then you needn't do anything further.


-- roleplayer 14:31, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Rioni of the City of Rome

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Right-wing populism

I immensely respect you and your deep knowledge of politics, but you must have missed something. AN was not a right-wing populist party at all. It was a moderate national-conservative party with liberal and Christian-democratic wings instead. Its precursor, the MSI, was a post-fascist national-conservative party, but here again not a right-wing populist party. Fini is definitely a populist (you should have listened to his Mirabello speech on September 5!) and at some extent an economic populist in the American sense, but neither he nor his former party was right-wing populist. --Checco (talk) 13:38, 7 September 2010 (UTC)


Good to have some fresh experienced eyes there. Hope you stay longer. Best, TMCk (talk) 14:17, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Ciao amico

Un grande saluto da Milano —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:25, 27 September 2010 (UTC) Da Milano? Ciao Steve, ciao Adrianna, ciao various others!.A presto, Ian Spackman (talk) 14:00, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


Hello, the fact that Montferrat is mentioned in those articles by the guardian, bbc, etc etc is self-explanatory, thus it is known widely, so what's the point with barolo and so on? I think any case that this source could be just fine to show the importance of Montferrat in the world. Let me know what you think about it. For that about "asti capitale", I agree, it isn't the capital of montferrat, although it is a relevant centre along with casale and acqui terme, also because it is the geographic core of the (geographic) subregion. --Frukko (talk) 12:55, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi Frukko! Give me an hour or two to reply. Ian Spackman (talk) 14:48, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
sure take your time. Thanks --Frukko (talk) 14:48, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
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