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Thanks. Grayfell (talk)



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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome! --Elkman (Elkspeak) 04:23, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


Hi Grayfell, I made some edits to AAFMAA and I think I reached a point where its possible to remove the Advert tag you placed there. Please let me know your thoughts and if you agree with my edits and actions. Best, Pratat (talk) 13:41, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Hello. Thank you for letting me know. I have restored the template with an explanation on the article's talk page. This is probably the best place to discuss things further. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 02:56, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

In refrence to your recent edit on mobikwik page.Edit

Hey Thanks for making the correction. I am very new to wikipedia and still learning. I added a recent partnership they had with a company called buyucoin. The new of the partnership is on many news and third party blogs sites. I first added the news from bitcoin.com, which is a pioneer in crypto space. But it was edited by some one who said crypto sites are not wprs. Then i saw some refrences in the current mobikwik page which has medianama , money control etc. These are same as like inc42 which you deleted. Can i know what kind of news sites are eligible to be a refrence on wikipedia. Furthermore the new of their partnership was on money control too. The same site which has been used as a refremce on current mobikwik page. So can it be used. Thank a lot in advance. Tinder007 (talk) 20:50, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

There are multiple issues here but the simplest way to explain it is that the source appears to be churnalism. A "partnership" is not significant merely because a bad source can be found. Using vague language to promote a service is not neutral or encyclopedic. How many users have the option to do something with some service is trivia. Wikipedia isn't a platform for promotion. Discuss this on the article's talk page, if necessary. Grayfell (talk) 03:06, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

What is your idea of a reliable source?Edit

Genuine question, and yes this is about the dissident right page. I want to know because that movement is a legitimate movement at this point. And I'm new to Wikipedia btw. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dissidentrightindian (talkcontribs) 03:00, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

I've already explained that, but will comment further on your talk page, to keep this in one place. Grayfell (talk) 03:01, 17 May 2020 (UTC)


Please stop using biased and loaded language on the Groyper page. Page was edited to reflect terminology which is professed by Groypers as opposed to inaccurate language which is designed to assign labels which do not reflect the Groyper movement The Swamp Creature (talk) 20:10, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia uses reliable sources, which also means independent sources. This means that it's up to sources to decide how the "Groypers" are described. Since your comments suggests that you are a member of the groypers, you have a conflict of interest and should propose edits on the article's talk page. Your first-hand knowledge is not relevant to Wikipedia, we need sources, and your personal dislike of those sources is also not particularly relevant. Any further comments here will be reverted. Further discussion should be held on the article's talk page. Grayfell (talk) 20:17, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Removal Of External LinksEdit

Hello. I received your note re: removal of external links "...because they seem to be inappropriate for an encylopedia." Not fully understanding your reasoning ("seemed"?), I read the guidelines. Thanks for providing the link as this is my first edit and I have much to learn. In reviewing the guidelines, the only issue that stood out was that links "...should not normally be placed in the body of an article." Is it just a matter of formatting and these should be footnoted instead?

Or...in reading "Links normally to be avoided" I see a few references to avoid links that are "intended to promote" and "...primarily exist to sell products or services." Might this be your reason for removing the links?

I have no affiliation with Joel Hunter in any way and my updates are intended to be just that...bring the information up to date.

Can you help me understand how better to do that? Thanks so much!

Seattle98121-3881 (talk) 21:36, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

@Seattle98121-3881: Hello.
Sorry, but there were several problems with your edit.
The language you added was not neutral, and read like it was intended to promote specific groups. It is important to write from a neutral point of view, not one of advocacy. Advocacy can also take the form of excessive levels of detail, or of details which lack context.
Another problem was that your edits were not properly sourced. You linked to many non-profits, but these links were neither reliable sources, nor did they support that Hunter's role was encyclopedically significant. As just one example (from past experience I need to emphasize that this is just an example, not the only problem here) this link to CFCH.org doesn't mention Hunter at all. In fact, CFCH.org's "leadership" page also doesn't mention Hunter. I don't know how you, personally, knew that Hunter is involved with this group, but you need to cite reliable sources for content like this.
One additional problem is that this was not encyclopedic, because it failed to provide important information according to due weight. The main goal of an encyclopedia like Wikipedia is to summarize secondary sources. One important way Wikipedia maintains neutrality is by relying on independent sources (meaning independent of the topic being covered). If independent sources do not mention Hunter's role in these various non-profits, it is unlikely to be significant to readers. Do readers have a path to understanding what the Central Florida Commission on Homelessness is, based on reliable and independent source ? If not, we cannot just take their own word for it and use an unreliable primary source, because this becomes a form of (hopefully inadvertent) promotion. If reliable, independent sources mention this information, we use those sources to provide context for why this is important. We do not use sources about a group to promote that group, even with the best intentions.
I hope that explains some of the problems. Grayfell (talk) 21:58, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks so much. Most all of the updates were sourced from a single source, "A Community Resource Network," (https://www.communityresourcenetwork.com/team) which appears to be where he is currently employed, albeit as a volunteer according to the site. I simply cut and pasted much from this single page. Your example concerning CFCH.org and his past leadership was not known to me. It came from the single source mentioned above (https://www.communityresourcenetwork.com/team). I get this a secondary source...clearly makes sense to not use secondary sources. Is this a logical conclusion I am drawing?

Second question: how would I go about updating the article to reflect his current position at "A Community Resource Network?" Seems like all the other "stuff" I first wrote is not appropriate...thanks for pointing it out and to the various links within Wiki to help me understand it better.

Final question: The Orlando Sentinel reports Hunter resigned, referring to a letter posted on the church's website, which has since been removed. It is archived here: https://www.pressreader.com/usa/orlando-sentinel/20170803/281865823555699. I do not have a subscription to the Orlando Sentinel and thus cannot confirm the original article. How might, if at all, I handle this?

I appreciate your time. Thanks.

Seattle98121-3881 (talk) 20:06, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

@Seattle98121-3881: Hello.
First, do not copy-paste from sources without clear attribution. This is a copyright violation. See WP:COPYVIO.
Second, you are correct that WP:SECONDARY sources are almost always preferable, but communityresourcenetwork is neither secondary, not inherently reliable. Setting that aside, most or all sources should also be WP:INDY of the topic, meaning that promotional blurbs which can be presumed to be provided by Hunter himself, are not generally useful. Very basic details can be supported by primary sources, but nothing beyond that. Since there is no obvious way for readers to understand what Community Resource Network is, the significance of this position will need reliable, independent sources. Start with sources and go from there, do not presume significance because a title sounds impressive.
Again, do not copy/paste from sources until you understand Wikipedia's stance on copyright. Grayfell (talk) 20:15, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks...for clarification, where did you find evidence of "copy-paste without clear attribution?" I am confused. Everything I originally wrote was attributed. Again, I'm picking up on the need for reliable, and independent and should lack "promotion."

As to communityresourcenetwork...so first establish the entity (using reliable, independent sources)...from there, go to Hunter and his role again using reliable independent sources. Am I close?

Seattle98121-3881 (talk) 20:27, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

@Seattle98121-3881:I did not see where it was attributed, and because it was a copyright violation, it has been removed from the page history. Again, review Wikipedia:Copyright violations but to keep things simple for everybody, don't copy/paste from any sources. Summarize reliable, independent sources in your own words, and cite those sources as references (Help:Referencing for beginners might help). This is almost always a better approach anyway, for multiple reasons.
If you have a reliable, independent source which mentions that Hunter is on the board of Community Resource Network, neutrally summarize what that source says. If you don't have such a source, it's probably not worth mentioning, since Wikipedia doesn't really care about details that aren't included in reliable sources.
If you think this organization is encyclopedically significant enough to have its own article, see Help:Your first article. I hope it's clear that everything I said about sources will also apply to that new article, as well. I'm just now noticing that Community Resource Network used to have an article, but it was deleted back in 2008 for lack of notability. One helpful guideline is WP:NORG, as this explains what the community expects regarding notability. Grayfell (talk) 20:40, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Got it. I indeed cut and paste most of what I edited and I should have put it quotes and then footnoted it, correct? (I think I footnoted one item in my original edit.) Last question: the opening statement "Joel Carl Hunter is the retired senior pastor of..." is not accurate as he resigned. How do I locate the source of this statement and/or have it updated? Seattle98121-3881 (talk) 20:50, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

@Seattle98121-3881: No, I think you're missing a key part of how Wikipedia works. You should summarize and paraphrase sources, neutrally, for almost everything you add to articles. Unfortunately there are a lot of articles which lack sources, but this is a problem which needs to be solved, not a precedent to follow.
Since that content was not neutral and the source was not necessarily reliable, you should not have copy/pasted it at all. If there is some specific reason to include direct quotes, there are ways to do this, but your copy/paste addition was not appropriate for multiple reasons. Discussing how to hypothetically add content like that is a distraction.
As for your second question, the difference between "resigning" and "retiring" seems trivial to me unless there is some specific importance provided by reliable sources. The church's website merely says he "stepped down"[1] but I don't think that's reliable for anything more than extremely basic information. I've changed the lead to say "former senior pastor" until a better source can be found. The long-term solution is to use reliable, independent sources to explain his career in the body of the article, and then summarize those sources in the lead.
Any information which is not supported by a reliable source can be removed at any time. This is standard for all articles, but especially for content about living people. Grayfell (talk) 22:09, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Alex JonesEdit

Thanks for catching the Forbes thing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:21, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

  Grayfell (talk) 06:22, 25 May 2020 (UTC)


I see in the Zalgo SPI archive, you filed against one of his socks Iikigaii in the past. I strongly suspect Skyisdeep is the same sock-puppet. See what I recently filed [2] for details. Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:51, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Oh dang, yeah, that's very likely. Good catch. Grayfell (talk) 23:29, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Regarding your reversal of my additionsEdit

Discuss on article's talk page.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Where is exactly the difference that requires you to revert my changes? We are both saying the same thing - there are far-right individuals on the platform. The thing is that I am pointing out that the website allows also far-left individuals to express themselves, whereas presently the article focuses on how it is all "far-right" people and seems to ignore the diversity of people on Bitchute.org. --Itzhak Rosenberg (talk) 16:44, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Reliable sources go into great detail around how far-right individuals use BitChute. The same is not true with far-left individuals. GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:51, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
The article itself mentions 2010s some anti-fascist groups, which are far-left, being banned from youtube. The Bitchute.org page is a reliable source, which states that it is politically neutral and open to extremist groups on all sides. --Itzhak Rosenberg (talk) 19:34, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
Bitchute is not a reliable source. Further discussion should be based on reliable sources, and should be held on the article's talk page, not here. Grayfell (talk) 19:50, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

David Cole/SteinEdit

If we're going to call him a Holocaust denier, we should at least present his specific views. Remember that we have to be strongly biased in his favor because it's a BLP.

Moreover his views are relevant since a reliable source (The Guardian) talked about them. I'm not making this up, it's in the body of the article. CozyandDozy (talk) 00:34, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

You are deeply confused about Wikipedia's policies. We are not strongly biased in his favor, we are "biased" towards reliable sources. If you are advocating for being biased in favor of a holocaust denier, I have no desire to discuss anything with you on my talk page. Discuss on the article's talk page, and do not post on my talk page again unless required by policy. Grayfell (talk) 00:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

OSCE and Massimo IntrovigneEdit

Not interested in playing games. Grayfell (talk) 22:01, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

When you have time, would you mind explaining to me why Introvigne’s work at the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe is irrelevant for the entry about him. It would seem to me OSCE is an important international organization, while the entry mentions such obscure groups as the Society of Dracula or the little-known Catholic Alliance. Introvigne’s OSCE work was quoted as relevant in several media and in two mainstream academic surveys about OSCE and religious liberty (that strangely another user called “press releases”). Thanks. Accidental Sociologist (talk) 21:24, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Revert of several edits on Fat fetishismEdit

Sock puppetry
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I honestly don't understand your complaint. Why do you think the sources are unreliable? I used several different academic papers. I'd like to discuss this. Throwawiki (talk) 20:29, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

The article's talk page is the place to discuss this. Grayfell (talk) 20:29, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Ok, please see my comment over there. Throwawiki (talk) 20:36, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Hey. Alex here. I would just like to say sorry for reverting edits without consensus on Benjamin's page, as well as snarky edit replies. I was wondering why the arbitration committee seemed to have been ignored there but, looking back on it, there was a lot of disagreement so I really want to apologise.

My snarkiness did come from a place of anger, not at you but rather:

  • People who have made me feel stupid for not reading up on increasingly esoteric pieces of Wikipedia policy and advice (fine if people want to pull that sort of thing up, they just don't have to make me feel bad for having less time than them).
  • People who have assumed my political opinions (used to identify as a feminist and atheist in my teens but am now pretty agnostic on both) or opinions about Benjamin (for the record him saying he is a "giant dick" is one of the few things I think he's right about).
  • People questioning my neutrality as an editor while not demonstrating their own (including one who referred to Benjamin's "so-called humour"), even though I go out of my way to be neutral and have to try not to smear people. And if they look at my edit count, people will see I edit the pages of folk from all persuasions, in all of which I aim for total neutrality.

I am proud of my work on here and I feel like that's just being questioned by people who don't know me or what I'm about. I think I say it best in my bio when I say "I don't find abstract political systems in themselves interesting, but more so the personalities, struggles and achievements of politicians and people in public life" (this is especially true when it comes to Benjamin since I wonder what drives a man to act in the bizarre way he does in the public spotlight). I'm naturally prone to solipsism as I am neuro-atypical (to be on here seriously, people kinda have to be) so empathising with people across the political and moral spectrum is pretty therapeutic for me.

I might go on that London Zoom call but I think we should have some alternative for our corner of the site so we can have good discussions about ways forward when it comes to maintaining neutrality around controversial topics. I become disheartened when I see comments like, "this reminds me of why I don't come to Wikipedia for controversial topics" because that should be where Wikipedia strives I think. Sorry for the ramble. Many thanks. Alex (talk) 05:32, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Asking for helpEdit

Dear Sir, I am a new user and am very worried about the current vandlization on Owen Benjamins page. I am new and not sure how to request this page return to a protected state. Any help? Thank you, TruthBuster21223 (talk) 14:59, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@TruthBuster21223: Hello. Wikipedia:Requests for page protection is the page you are looking for. Grayfell (talk) 20:16, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the help.

TruthBuster21223 (talk) 02:01, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

"Discuss on talk page"Edit

Hello, regarding your edit on InfoWars: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=InfoWars&oldid=prev&diff=962838782&diffmode=source Please read mit edit summary instead of just reverting; i restored deleted info from the previous edit, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=InfoWars&diff=960155460&oldid=960031104&diffmode=source Urgal (talk) 09:18, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Sockpuppet investigationEdit

Hi, I started a sockpuppet investigation into various accounts related to one account you've dealt with in the past. If you have additional input, here's the investigation page: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Henrymancini333#Suspected_sockpuppets Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:53, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


Who's sock is he? I would like to know a bit about this user. Mohanabhil (talk) 18:02, 20 June 2020 (UTC)


Re: "Revert. Overt editorializing. He used in "briefly"? Then explain why it matters without ? Use these independent sources to provide context for why the opinions of The Negro Family: The Case For National Action are encyclopedically significant. Who is Robert Johnson, and why is this cherry-picked quote significant?"

Hi Grayfell, after two fully stymied attempts to contribute, edit or expand the current Racialism article please advise what kind of edits you would accept here. The current Definitions and differences Section already contains quotes that under your standard may be editorialized or cherry picked. Racialism is a relatively seldom used term but Du Bois, Moynihan, Johnson and others used them or referenced them in a historically varied and sometimes conflicting way. Why should diversity of use be cancelled out? Over time, the term's has been more diverse than reflected in the current Wikipedia content. This diversity is what I'm trying to convey in the edits. Please advise what expansion in the Definition and differences Section you could find tolerable. Shoefly (talk) 00:16, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

As you already know, the place to discuss this is the article's talk page. To emphasize what I said there, summarize what sources are actually saying about the term "racialism". Do not use sources for a connected point to imply something about the term, as this is WP:SYNTH, which is a form of WP:OR. Again, the place to discuss this is there, not here. Grayfell (talk) 01:41, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

DUCK sockEdit

Bethesda=Terrible is a pretty obvious DUCK sock of Brockhold, same edits as previous sock, Citadel2811. I don't know whqt the hell the admin wants by way of data. Can you take a look at the SPI? Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:45, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

That is indeed some very loud quacking. Thanks for the heads up, I'll keep an eye on it. To be honest, I never know what is expected from SPIs. As I'm sure you've noticed, it's a gamble based on whichever admin ends up looking at it. In the past I've gone way overboard on diffs, but at least a few times, that's dragged it out so long that it became stale by the time any admin bothered to look at it, defeating the purpose. In practice SPIs expect editors to become lawyers just to report abuse. That's a broken system, but I don't know how to fix it. Grayfell (talk) 23:02, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

sock puppet of Smile LeeEdit

Smile Lee, you know who he is, has made articles for advertising not only in English Wikipedia, but in Wikipedia of many languages, including Japanese. I want to delete his articles from Japanese Wikipedia, however, I can't judge whether it passes notability test or not. Would you kindly give some advice for me?(Help desk)--おいしい豚肉 (talk) 05:07, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

@おいしい豚肉: Hello.
Smile Lee again? Dang.
Heaven Sent Gaming is not notable enough for Wikipedia. I do not know Japanese Wikipedia's notability guidelines, but this article is spam. Ja:マリオ・J・ルセロ and ja:イザベル・ルイズ・ルセロ are also spam. The sources are all VERY poor. Most of them are other Wikis or worse, and fail ja:Wikipedia:信頼できる情報源#自己公表された情報源/WP:SPS. You are safe in assuming that this is conflict of interest editing. カナダカナダ is not acting ethically. The best source is weak, and the rest are garbage.
Let me know if I can help with a sock puppet investigation for カナダカナダ. I will do what I can. There are many reasons to think this account is a sock puppet.
For example: カナダカナダ claims to speak French fluently, but that account has not edited French Wikipedia (from グローバルアカウント情報). There are other things, as well. Grayfell (talk) 06:19, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Rebel News addressEdit

How is the Yellow Pages not a valid source? (talk) 21:28, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

See WP:RS. It may or may not be valid in some cases, but trivia needs better sources. The place to discuss this is the article's talk page, not here. Grayfell (talk) 21:30, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Recent removalEdit

Hi, could you explain why you removed the templates on the Conspiracy theories page? Conspiracy theories are all about topics such as "propaganda" and "media manipulation". It's directly relevant. Altanner1991 (talk) 07:53, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

See WP:BIDIRECTIONAL as a start. I will also add that readers will not benefit from a large number of nav-boxes. Hundreds of links, some of which are redundant, some of which are only very loosely connected, are more overwhelming than helpful. While these things are all broadly related, so are lots of topics. Including these connections in this way is a form of editorializing. As I said, discuss on the article's talk page, if necessary. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 07:59, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Edit in Gail TredwellEdit

Thank you for removing "my" changes in Gail Tredwell but there seems to be a little misunderstanding.

I'm not used to WP:BLP at all. I added 2 small paragraphs, sourced by Pinterest and Amazon Reviews. Sorry, they are not reliable sources but maybe reading my text would help you understand why I did this. But you seem to blindly apply the rules so I won't try to argue.

I also fixed the messed up links in a big paragraph which is not from me. It was added in 2017 by special users and They used external links instead of internal references so that it was impossible to see that their only source was a blog. This slandering contribution was not sourced, yet it has remained published for 3 years.

I have already tried to removed this big unsourced paragraph in October 2018 but my changes have been reverted by special user 2601:8c3:8080:9780:605b:1863:2ed3:e5a6 in November 2019. You have removed it today? Don't worry it will come back online again. This could involve you in an edit war. Unless you just remove things and move forward, leaving me alone to deal with, and 2601:8c3:8080:9780:605b:1863:2ed3:e5a6.

Look at the history and maybe you'll understand diff=972043056&oldid=953631283

Liviscobal (talk) 23:16, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

@Liviscobal: I'm not sure what you're getting at, but insulting me won't work. I saw your edit on my watchlist. This was automatically tagged as having potential BLP issues, so I looked closer. I read your changes, but they were not appropriate, because they were in response to inappropriate content. You were correct to remove it in 2018.
I understand and appreciate that you fixed the formatting, but the content should not have been there at all. It is unfortunate that this content lasted as long as it did. It is also unfortunate that this behavior is nothing new. This content has discussed before on Wikipedia, such such as back in 2014 at Talk:Mata Amritanandamayi.
Wikipedia works on consensus, so you should be willing to work with other editors. Because of the seriousness of this content, please consider posting to Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard if this happens again. I will try to keep a closer eye on the article. Grayfell (talk) 07:13, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Image removalEdit

Hello! I posted two images on pages that I am interested in and they both got removed. The images are both taken by me and show only myself on them and relate to items of clothing I regularly use and wear as daily choice. Can you please let me know why they were taken down? Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nopk1231 (talkcontribs) 22:01, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

@Nopk1231: Hello. In both cases, The images were added twice to each article, and one of the images was unnecessarily large. Having redundant images is not helpful for readers trying to understand these topics. Also, this is hard to distinguish from spamming, especially since they are self-portraits. Further, galleries should not be used in this way (see WP:IG). I would suggest proposing the images on the articles' talk pages: Talk:Pantyhose for men and Talk:Pantyhose. This will allow other, impartial editors to evaluate the appropriateness and neutrality of these images. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 22:11, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
I have noted and replied on both pages. Please excuse the use of copy and paste, but my reply seems accurate to both instances. Curved Space (talk) 09:48, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Rude tone on talk page and arbitrary policiesEdit

Sock puppet
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The talk page on that article contains numerous, lengthy quotations, so to cite "muh copyright" is pretty offensive. I also think that it's incredibly rude and shows poor interpersonal skills to come on to someone's talk page and begin a sentence with "Do not", and is a good way to antagonize someone. Please be more polite next time you interact with people.Shemakesmynosebleed (talk) 22:32, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm not interested in playing this game. Your talk page blanking already makes it very, very clear you do not like people posting there, but your behavior was not appropriate. You've also already violated WP:1RR for that article. I am not interested in attempting to meet your nebulous, personal definition of "polite". Based on the content of your posts, you goal is to combine random and shoddy sources to demonize undocumented immigrants to score political points. Wikipedia isn't the place for this kind of behavior, nor, for that matter, is this polite by any definition worth following. Don't bother responding. Grayfell (talk) 22:56, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Removing advertEdit

Hello. I was working on Sierra Nevada Corporation and hoping to make contributions to improve the article in a way that would make the advert message that you posted in September 2017 unnecessary. Can you take a look at the article to see if its ready? If not, I will keep working on it, just wanted to ask for your review first. Bubble567gum (talk) 23:40, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. I will post a comment on the article's talk page. Grayfell (talk) 00:10, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up re Forbes - Subject Matter Expert?Edit

I’m sure it’ll be useful inthe future. However... checking some links wiki says the Forbes source may be acceptable if the writer is an expert in the field. In this case she is a lecturing professor at the Uni of Nevada, Las Vegas, has at least one published book in the field of sex toys and many years experience including New York Times etc. See https://www.forbes.com/sites/lynncomella/#6348853c272f for her blurb so I’d call her a subject matter expert. What do you think? I don’t want to use this article only to have it reverted again. Dakinijones (talk) 08:00, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@Dakinijones: Hello.
I apologize if I caused any edit conflicts. I noticed that you were still working on the article and decided to hold off on any more edits for now.
Hmm. Well...
Contributor content is basically the same as a blog post. Generally, as WP:UGC/WP:SPS, blog posts are only usable with attribution. So, for example, "According to communications expert Lynn Comella..." Ideally, this would include a wikilink to Lynn Comella for context. At a glance it appears she might meet Wikipedia:Notability (academics) as a tenured professor, which means a red link would be appropriate.
I sincerely do not mean this to be insulting to Professor Comella, but this story was not published in the NYT, it was published in Forbes. Forbes is very lax with editorial standards, fact-checking, corrections, retractions, etc. I've read some great stuff from Forbes contributors, but I still don't cite it in articles. If there is content from this article which is important, and is not supportable with a better source, that might be good approach. I hope that's helpful.
Grayfell (talk) 09:23, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. Very helpful. I’ll use the Forbes Comella article as a pointer to search for alt refs (some seem to be in her book) if poss and only redline if no other option. I did notice and appreciate your care around editing conflicts so thanks for that too. Dakinijones (talk) 18:24, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Doug TenNapelEdit

Would you have time/inclination to weigh in with BoiledAlaska and this latest round of... trans-critical euphemisms? (I'm trying to find a polite phrasing.) I'm going to try to put up some contributive edits over the weekend and address their concerns about sourcing and TenNapel's responses, but these arguments are exhausting and I feel like you have a better grasp of Wikipedia policies and overall community positions on these matters than I do. Thanks! Mockingbus (talk) 01:26, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Hello. Yeah, I also find them exhausting, but I have posted a response at the article's talk page. Oh, one thing I didn't mention there is MOS:GENDERID. That might be worth explaining as well. Grayfell (talk) 19:57, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
Well met! Thanks for joining in; I suspect that this is going to go on for a while (and likely in circles). Mockingbus (talk) 02:01, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, probably. I admit I don't have as much patience for these kinds of discussions as I would like. TenNapel's gimmick is not new, and I've seen this kind of thing come up on Wikipedia more often than I can count. The temptation is for Wikipedia to refocused on how we cover TenNapel's point of view, but this is false balance. If it gets to this point, we've already lost. Giving these self-described "cancel culture" victims the benefit of the doubt long enough to explain their position isn't credible. As Cody Johnston said, "Cancel Culture Isn't A Thing, You Snowflakes".
There's an obvious reason sources are discussing TenNapel's comments, but this gets lost. It's obvious to most reasonable people why these comments are unacceptable in polite society, so sources don't even bother to explain it. His bigotry, his zealotry, his astonishingly bad comparison of BLM to Hitler... these somehow manage to slip through the cracks and become "out of context". As a courtesy to him, or to cover their ass legally, sources let him paint himself as the victim. And therefore every comment section mentioning his name now becomes some Bizarro-world version of a gender studies classroom... The worst part is it doesn't matter if his defenders on these talk pages even realize any of this. They are either fooled in good faith, or they're not. The end result is the same. Grayfell (talk) 08:00, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
Oh, I agree, the whole thing is at best a whitewash and at worst a bad-faith semantic game of "I'm not touching you!". I've had variations of the argument outside of Wikipedia enough times to recognize them, but here I try to find a temporary "less bad" stopping point to build from, just to prevent edit wars from cluttering up the version history (a la AnimeFan). You're probably right, though; it's probably an over-conciliatory approach sometimes. Thank you again for stepping up. Mockingbus (talk) 06:49, 1 September 2020 (UTC)


Please review WP:BRD, in particular: "Don't restore your changes..." which you did here before beginning a discussion as an apparent afterthought. Thank you. Magic9Ball (talk) 04:52, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

BRD is an essay, not a policy. Wikipedia:Don't template the regulars is another essay, not a policy. Your perfunctory comment is not a template, but it's just as silly. WP:OWN, on the other hand, actually is a policy. You have less than 500 edits, and over a hundred of which are Comicsgate or affiliated personalities, such as the alt-right blogger Vox Day. If you want to discuss policies and essays further, perhaps try the teahouse. Otherwise, the place to discuss the article is the article's talk page. Grayfell (talk) 06:09, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Thakur AnukulchandraEdit

Hello Grayfell,

I wanted to let you know that I just tagged Thakur Anukulchandra for deletion, because it seems to be copied from another source, probably infringing copyright.

If you feel that the article shouldn't be deleted and want more time to rewrite it in your own words, you can contest this deletion, but don't remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. Thanks!

Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.

John B123 (talk) 20:58, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Andy NgoEdit

Hi there. In general, mass reverts are not helpful, and it is a violation of policy to unilaterally remove an NPOV tag. Please explain what you believe the unattributed opinions were, because the lead is to serve as a concise summary of the article (You simultaneously removed the same content from the lead and body—where it included a citation—and then called that content in the lead, where citations are not required, "unattributed.). Wikieditor19920 (talk) 22:39, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Whitewashing and tag bombing are also not helpful. Follow BRD and gain consensus on the article's talk page. Grayfell (talk) 22:40, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Blackstone GroupEdit

Hello. I am reaching out about your comment on my talk page.

1. I posted a warning to another user after going through to edit history of Blackstone Group, and found that the change I made was also made/suggested by another user (see the last talk edit on Blackstone pages). That would count for 2 out of 3 edits. My edit was reverted without any discussion, and an accusatory attack on my conflict of interest in editing the post (and being accused of being part of PR). In an effort to reach out to wikipedia about how to proceed when two editors are disagreeing, I found https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution#For_urgent_situations. I felt warring best described the situation, and followed the instructions to warn the user. 2. You accuse me of both sockpuppetry and having a conflict of interest. Neither of these are true. I am an avid user of wiki, was looking up what year Blackstone started investing in single family rentals, and landed on the wiki article thats first sentence was not up to wikipedias standard. A bunch of inflammatory, non definition links that belonged in a different section. I decided to join wikipedia and edit the article, and now plan to become involved as I enjoyed that process. Please do not accuse me of being a part of a "PR campaign" or sock-puppetry without any evidence. It discourages new members like myself to get involved. 3. I am happy to encourage the user to move these links to a different section with a more neutral tone. That is not a significant ask and well within wikipedias content guidelines --Theoracle102 (talk) 03:27, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

It's pretty strange for a brand new account to be talking about being "well within wikipedias content guidelines". Whether you are right or wrong about that, it's still pretty strange. Per the article's talk page, Blackstone Group has a specific documented history of paid editing. Undisclosed paid editing harms Wikipedia. By policy, Wikipedia is not a platform for public relations or advocacy, so this is a legitimate concern and I hope it's obvious why your sudden appearance and precocious behavior would be noteworthy.
It's also pretty strange that you copy/pasted a template warning from somewhere else. The template is specifically for WP:3RR violations, which means three edits within a 24-hour period. This doesn't apply, so your template was inappropriate. Please be more careful about this.
Wikipedia:Dispute resolution#For urgent situations specifically advises you to go to a noticeboard if things get urgent. It doesn't advise you to post the wrong template. Regardless, Wikipedia:Edit warring has a specific meaning, this doesn't seem urgent yet, and the article's talk page is the place to discuss this further.
If you're keen to become more involved, perhaps the WP:TEAHOUSE might be useful. Grayfell (talk) 03:44, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, I will do that. I read the guidelines in detail and thought they were pretty clear. I also don't like comments on my page such as "Pretty clearly a member Blackstone's PR team. How embarrassing for them. Colinmcdermott (talk) 09:06, 7 September 2020 (UTC)". This are ad hominem attacks that don't address the content of my edits at all.

I will check out the tea house — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theoracle102 (talkcontribs) 17:00, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Andy NgoEdit

I saw the revert, but no sourcing. Where is the sourcing? --Deepfriedokra (talk) 21:30, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Inline citations are not the same as sources. The lead is a summary of the body of the article, which has many sources. The place to discuss this further is the article's talk page. Grayfell (talk) 22:14, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
Thanks. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 22:26, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Mass revertsEdit

Please stop mass reverting Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence. Other editors have already asked you to stop mass reverting articles like Andy Ngo. Iroh (talk) 20:13, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Are we looking at edit histories now? Aren't you the editor who wanted to downplay Jared Taylor's antisemitism? I'm writing out a comment for WP:FRN WP:FTN so that other editors can evaluate this content. Grayfell (talk) 20:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
Jared Taylor is not antisemitic, I just wanted the section header to be consistent with its body (and I appear to have garnered a consensus on that point). I must admit I am not familiar with WP:FRN. Iroh (talk) 20:22, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
Link: Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence Grayfell (talk) 20:30, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Phi Rho SigmaEdit

Hello Grayfell. You've had a rather sharp red pen on a few of my contributions lately. For example, I have been cleaning up the article Phi Rho Sigma which had not been formatted anywhere close to the standard that my fraternities and sororities project adheres to, and I had frankly made it much cleaner. Our standard syntax allows statements of an organization's creed or operating goals, found in their constitution or separately on their website. Yet you've removed them, calling this WP:SOAP and "unnecessary detail.". I think this is an unfair, unwarranted and arbitrary characterization. Such items of content are the foundational motivations of these many groups. If your intent is to remove all such language from perhaps a thousand fraternity or sorority pages it will be distressing to the many volunteer editors who seek to maintain these thousands of fraternity and sorority pages. It seems unreasonable that you would do so, almost an attack on this particular page. Your edit comment suggests these should rather come from other verifiable sources. --But new groups don't have the luxury of inclusion in the reference standard for the fraternity world, Baird's Manual. Nor are the creeds or goals of these groups clarified in well-established news sources, as would be necessary for more controversial articles. Editors (like me) are forced to go to the group's constitution or bylaws themselves for this information. While not an independent, published source, a practiced eye can see that it is reasonable to assume they are accurate. Often they are accepted by host institutions as the documents whereby a chapter was accepted for student group status. You see?

Finally, while I am a participant in the fraternities and sororities project, I have simply zero connection with this particular group. (You marked the page with a third-party tag.) I am merely a volunteer editor with an Aspie streak, looking to improve all these pages. I've worked on hundreds of them. Honestly, I feel as if you are picking on these groups a bit. It's easy to do with tools like Twinkle, but I remind you that people adopt pages as a labor of love, as volunteers. Much of my work has been to trim bad, or biased content. What you removed was neither bad or biased.

I do appreciate the edit you made to the page which you labled MOS:DATED Jax MN (talk) 01:00, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Note: this particular organization is quite old, enough to have been listed in Baird's, but unfortunately, unlike many of the fraternities listed there, Baird's did not include a mission (purpose, creed) statement in the 20th edition, to which I would normally refer. Jax MN (talk) 01:13, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a platform for promotion or advocacy. This means that reliable, independent sources are necessary for almost everything of substance. Your obvious passion for promoting these organizations is at odds with Wikipedia's mission as a neutral encyclopedia. Regardless of any particular WP:COI, advocacy of this kind is not appropriate, and fails WP:NPOV.
As for Baird's, it is a single tertiary source which is heinously over-used on these articles. Wikipedia is also a tertiary source, and over-reliance on any single source is inappropriate. If an article is entirely dependent on Baird's (and the group's own promotional material) then the group is likely non-notable. Wikipedia has established guidelines for notability, such as (but not limited to) WP:NORG. We do not presume that an organization is notable, this must be demonstrated by multiple significant, independent sources. All sources need to be evaluated in context, and again, Wikipedia strongly favors WP:IS. This means that any article on a fraternity or sorority will reflect that group in proportion to reliable sources. This is not a new or extraordinary standard.
I intend to improve these articles as I find them. It seems that this usually means trimming promotional language. In my experience, almost all of those "thousands of volunteers" have a COI themselves, and I suspect you are also aware of this problem, or you wouldn't have mentioned it. WP:EFFORT is not a valid justification for preserving poor content. We have to evaluate articles on their own merits, not based on some arbitrary or flawed precedent. Further, Wikipedia is for everyone, including people who reject the legitimacy of the "Greek" system. An article which tacitly endorses the Greek model is inherently non-neutral. Far too many of these article use non-neutral language to inflate the significance and value of the organizations. This is a problem which needs to be solved, it is not an excuse to add more promotional material. Again, your obvious passion for this model is clear, but this is not the platform for sharing that passion.
I am not interested in a protracted discussion of this. Please make any response succinct. Grayfell (talk) 02:29, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Potential ideaEdit

It's an idea, inspired by the constant fringe and COI promotion in the medicine area and the recent village-pump thread, that reminded me of the importance of MEDRS. Considering that the same problem persists, maybe something similar would be useful in relation to claims about the intelligence of groups, genetic correlates, etc... —PaleoNeonate – 08:23, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

@PaleoNeonate: This is an intriguing idea. I don't know how this would work, but I am curious to hear more about it. I think the recent FRINGE RFC shows support for better tools to deal with this. I've pointed to MEDRS in some cases, since psychology can be medical, but usually that's a stretch.
Also, I can't tell for certain, but it does seem like there is a surge in racialist pseudoscience activity on Wikipedia these last few days. Maybe I'm just reverting more of it than usual. Grayfell (talk) 03:07, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
Are you aware of the MEDRS-level sourcing requirement that Barkeep49 implemented as a discretionary sanction on the R&I article? Using DS to target problem articles could be a faster/easier option. –dlthewave 03:59, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
I had forgotten about that one. Easy to lose track on that page. In that thread we see some very poor-quality sources being proposed because they are in peer-reviewed journals, so I'm not sure how much that actually helps to prevent fringe issues. Grayfell (talk) 04:23, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Conversion therapy section on Restored Hope Network PageEdit

Please continue the discussion on the article's talk page, instead of splitting this between multiple pages
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The website of the organization specifically indicates it does not support conversion therapy, however, I left the section and the initial comments in their original form. However, I think it is worth citing that the organization itself denies these claims. I think it would be akin to new sources claiming such and such an organization was a "white-power organization" and the group claiming otherwise. Neither makes the true nature of the organization definitive, but I think it is worth mentioning when an organization accused of being one thing specifically refutes that claim. Otherwise, are we not biasing our understanding of what the organization is on what external sources ay alone, and not letting the public see both sides of the argument, and allowing them to make their own decision? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TexasHoosier (talkcontribs) 04:18, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Since I have already mentioned some of these issues, the appropriate place to continue this discussion is Talk:Restored Hope Network. Thank you. Grayfell (talk) 04:23, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Hello, Greyfell,

Editing on this article is veering into edit-warring territory. You are a very experienced editor and so I know you already know this but I'm just giving you some encouragement to try to involve other editors on the article talk page to resolve the dispute over this content. I've posted a notice on Maxim's talk page but I try to avoid templating long-term editors if I can avoid it. Thanks. Liz Read! Talk! 01:59, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Yesterday, after three days of discussion on the talk page, I made an edit, and then promptly explained that edit. How many days would I have had to wait for a response before this wouldn't be edit warring? This is a rhetorical question.
I assume you're commenting based on behavior, not content, but it's silly to pretend that they are completely separable.
An article as important as Jews should not be left with issues this bad. This content seriously misrepresents sources, and also happens to align with a talking point from the fringe theory of Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence, which is based on white nationalist pseudoscience. I've explained this on the talk page, and other talk pages, and at WP:FRINGEN, and nobody, including "the other editor" seems to disagree that this theory is fringe garbage. So why is this theory's paper still cited in the article without any context at all? That's not a rhetorical question, but the article's talk page would be a better place to answer it. Grayfell (talk) 03:40, 17 October 2020 (UTC)


Hello, Greyfell totally new to Wiki but found some nice information that I thought worth sharing. I tried to up load my source document under file but they are pdfs which I found wiki does not like. I have the original investor deck, a print out of a dodsbir.net article, and First meeting of incorporation. Oh and a print our of an email chain from the two founders "Nanodigm is simply being renamed to Nanosolar to reflect our current product focus" — Preceding unsigned comment added by FindingPaperwork (talkcontribs) 00:00, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

@FindingPaperwork: Hello.
To recap the issue: Information on Wikipedia should be verifiable via reliable sources. Although sources do not have to be online, there does need to be a way for editors to confirm these details. Without sources, this is original research, which is not allowed.
A printout of an email chain is almost certainly not appropriate as a reliable source. See WP:PRIMARY. If this email involves specific people, WP:BLPPRIMARY also applies.
For other, public sources, I would take a look at Help:Referencing for beginners.
If you found this information online, you should include a link if you can. If this is behind a paywall, see WP:SOURCEACCESS.
If the information is not online, is unambiguously public information, and also is not copyrighted (or you own the copyright and are willing to donate it), you might be able to uploaded it to Wikimedia Commons. This is a sister project to Wikipedia, and has it's own set of rules and guidelines. Wikipedia:Wikimedia Commons explains this further.
One other thing to keep in mind is that Wikipedia strongly favors independent sources, although they are not always required.
I hope that helps. Grayfell (talk) 01:06, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

@ greyfell The Wikimedia commons page is where I attempted to upload the documents but it stated something about the documents were not media. I have file box on everything related to nanosolar's early days. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1G4UMlW7DxYfKcJ9tDHsvVKqP5IrR3fjh/view?usp=sharing FindingPaperwork (talk) 01:47, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

@FindingPaperwork: I'm confused. If you got these from dodsbir.net, why are you trying to upload them? If you found this information online, it would usually be much better to direct readers to that source.
Like I said, Commons is a sister project. It has its own set of rules and guidelines. Perhaps Commons:Help:Contents would be helpful, but beyond that I cannot offer you any more assistance. Grayfell (talk) 04:36, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Soldier's Memorial, Santa FeEdit

Hello fellow Black Rock citizen! I wanted to let you know that I modified some edits you made to Soldiers' Monument (Santa Fe, New Mexico). I don't think that these protests that toppled the obelisk had anything to do with the George Floyd protests, but rather they had to do with Indigenous People's Day, a.k.a. Columbus Day. Please let me know if you would like to discuss in more detail. Thanks and good meeting you here in the default world. Netherzone (talk) 23:12, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

@Netherzone: Hello, nice to meet you!
For my own future reference, these are the edits we are talking about. The article is still kind of a mess, so my edits were just to make the lead meaningful to people trying to understand why this monument is/was important, and why it was toppled.
So first thing first, I think that regardless of the details, the lead should definitely mention that the obelisk has been toppled. Right now it doesn't mention this, it just says the plaque has been damaged. This is misleading. One of the four commemorative plaques was already damaged. What is new is that the obelisk has been removed from the plinth.[3] Most of the monument (by height, at least) is currently gone.
I didn't actually say in the article that the toppling was part of the George Floyd protests. My addition said that it was toppled during Indigenous Peoples' Day protests.
The timeline, as I understand it:
  • It was erected in 1868
  • One of the the four plaques was chiseled in 1974
  • That same plague was severely damaged in mid-June 2020, at or around the same time the tip was removed for safety reasons. [4] ← this is the part that was around the time of the George Floyd protests
  • The obelisk on the plinth was toppled on 12 October on Indigenous People's Day.
Since these all seemed import to the history of the monument, this was what I tried to summarize in the lead.
Hopefully that explains what I was trying to do with the article. Grayfell (talk) 00:11, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
Hi Grayfell, dusty greetings and thanks for your quick response. I agree the article is still in the messy formative stages, and that the article is an important contribution to the encyclopedia. It was mainly the mention of the Floyd protests that I felt could be confusing to readers who might conflate those protests with Oct. 12 indigenous peoples protests. I was tired when making my edits earlier and introduced some errors which I hopefully self-reverted. Yes you are right, it is critically important that the lede mention the toppling of the obelisk (as well as the plaque damage) because the toppling is the most demonstrable statement/result of the recent protest. As more news of the event and the aftermath unfold, there will be more content to work with. In the meantime it's on my watchlist. Have a good evening. Netherzone (talk) 00:31, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Thoughts on thisEdit

Kia ora Grayfell, came across this editor who I thought sounded very similar to recently banned IP but dates don't match as account made before IP. However, I see there is more history to it all from Admin noticeboard and Trolling so wanted to get your thoughts. NZFC(talk)(cont) 23:27, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed that editor as well. I don't think there is enough to behaviorally link that editor to the Tennessee Verizon troll mentioned in the two ANI links, and the style seems very different. It's possible, but connecting any one editor to another here is difficult. The username being a possible reference to LeafyIsHere is also a bad sign, but it might be a coincidence and it's better to wait and see. If their goal is disruption, forcing us to spend our time playing Whac-A-Mole means they still win.
Still, there is something weird going of for this topic. As I said above at #Potential idea, I've noticed a sudden surge in racialist pseudoscience edits. It might be a sock farm, but I think it's more likely coming from some offline site or twitter account or similar. I just checked, and as I expected, Emil Kierkegaard (who is banned from editing) tweeted about the recent AfD several times. He blamed it on "communists". The IP claimed a private slack channel was being used to coordinate trolling. This was a failed ploy to cause drama and paranoia, but it's also probably semi-accurate. I would be very surprised if there weren't private "human biodiversity movement" Slacks, Discords, etc. floating around spreading this nonsense. There aren't actually that many of them, but the "HDB movement" is very online, and most of online world is bored and anxious. Grayfell (talk) 01:12, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Human genetic clustering articleEdit

Hi Grayfell. I'm considering listing the article on human genetic clustering for deletion as a case of WP:TNT. The tl;dr argument is it's original synthesis as an unreadable hodgepodge of quotes and arbitrarily-selected studies with virtually none of the text dedicated to actual clustering methods or their interpretations. Do you have any thoughts?Citing (talk) 21:05, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

@Citing: Hello. That's an interesting idea. I've reverted some WP:BE at that article in the past, but I have to admit that much of the technical details of that article go over my head. I suspect they go over the heads of a lot of other readers, too, whether they admit it to themselves or not. Based on the Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence discussion, that won't stop them from commenting "Keep - topic is notable".
As you may already know, "clustering" is very often used as a euphemism for "race" by the Human Biodiversity Movement and other scientific racists. Something similar is going on at nations and intelligence quotient, where "nations" is merely another proxy for race, creating a WP:COATRACK of race and intelligence.
Sorry, now I'm rambling. I dunno. I'll look at the article closer when I have a chance to dive into the sources more. Grayfell (talk) 22:29, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Right, I've seen a lot of abuse of "clusters" in that sphere. It caught my attention since the topic is very close to my area of research. The scientific sources cited are not bad per se, but the problem is basically every genetics study involves some sort of cluster analysis so citing specific studies is cherry-picking and totally uninformative. As presented, the article implies that researchers are duelling and looking for "true" clusters and arguing about race when in reality what they're doing is using cluster analysis as one of several tools among many data sets to find signals of things like shared demographic histories. The article does a terrible job of explaining what the topic actually is and it's become a giant WP:COATRACK. It also doesn't help that the article was created (and thus shaped) by a now-banned editor who had a habit of edit warring in various race sciencey ways. I think an AfD would be appropriate (and I anticipate the same types of contributions as there were with the Ashkenazi intelligence article), but since I saw your activity there I figured I'd give you a heads up.Citing (talk) 23:05, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
FYI, discussion is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Human genetic clustering.Citing (talk) 16:51, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Rod DreherEdit

@Grayfell and Donner60: Is this a case where we should be reporting a violation of the three-revert rule? I don't think I've ever made such a report before. (talk) 03:53, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

@Grayfell and I have puzzled about this because it may be that everyone is in good faith, even if some mistakes of approach or errors in applying policies could be involved. Off the top of my head, I tend to think a request for some level of temporary page protection might be appropriate. Another thought is that it might help to have a neutral, uninvolved third party give an opinion about anything that should be included or omitted after reviewing the stream of edits as a whole. There is a page to request such opinions but I am not sure that anyone would necessarily want to get involved as this may be more controversial than I supposed as I looked at a small piece of it. On the other hand, some administrators might be willing to take a look at it from that view rather than straight out blocking the user. I must admit that my one revert of an edit which removed text without explanation was done with a Huggle edit and I did not notice all of the ongoing edits so Greyfell, who apparently looked at this more closely, might have a definite view on making a report. I have been editing for a while and do not recall that I have ever made such a report - which really doesn't mean much because that does not mean they are not appropriate in some instances. Donner60 (talk) 04:34, 1 November 2020 (UTC)


Hi! I noticed that you were there on the subject. I am trying to improve the article. Kindly see and advice. Your suggestions will help me. Thanks and regardsRAJIVVASUDEV (talk) 08:54, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

@RAJIVVASUDEV: Hello. I last edited that article on March 2016, and I don't remember much about this topic. Looking at your changes, my only concern is that patents are WP:PRIMARY sources and should be used with caution. It is almost always better to cite a secondary source when possible. I hope that helps. Grayfell (talk) 00:09, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Well noted, all. I am sincerely thankful for your time and guidance. Is it possible to add another source (secondary) along with the existing ones? Best regards RAJIVVASUDEV (talk) 04:23, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Consensus on Talk:2020 United States racial unrestEdit

Hi, I believe this proposal is what User:Lmomjian is referring to. I think it has support from all of the editors who have been involved (on both sides) in the discussion. Stonkaments (talk) 01:06, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

That proposal doesn't remove the word "education". There are other problems I could raise, but the place to discuss this further would be the talk page, not here. Grayfell (talk) 03:32, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi Grayfell, keeping/removing word "education" is not important to me, I'm fine with leaving that in, if we can agree to the proposal that would be great as we consider that a pretty good compromise between the various edits that people have been warring over in the past week or two. This has been very controversial. Thanks, Lmomjian (talk) 04:58, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

As I said, the place to discuss this further would be the talk page, not here. Grayfell (talk) 05:05, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Yeah... the place to discuss this is on the article talk page, but I think everyone here knows that. Not only did most of the editors involved in that thread not even respond to the linked comment and hence I think it has support from all of the editors who have been involved (on both sides) in the discussion is presuming to speak for a great many people, Aquillion saying I would oppose any weakening of the wording right before they reverted Stonkaments's fourth deletion in a row of the same material definitely does not mean "I think it would be a great idea if Lmomjian deleted this instead." --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 12:25, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

November 2020Edit

  Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. You appear to be repeatedly reverting or undoing other editors' contributions. Although this may seem necessary to protect your preferred version of a page, on Wikipedia this is known as "edit warring" and is usually seen as obstructing the normal editing process, as it often creates animosity between editors. Instead of reverting, please discuss the situation with the editor(s) involved and try to reach a consensus on the talk page.

If editors continue to revert to their preferred version they are likely to lose their editing privileges on that page. This isn't done to punish an editor, but to prevent the disruption caused by edit warring. In particular, editors should be aware of the three-revert rule, which says that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Edit warring on Wikipedia is not acceptable in any amount, and violating the three-revert rule is very likely to result in loss of your editing privileges.

Please don't edit war, even to revert disruptive edits. Liz Read! Talk! 03:14, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

@Liz: Holocaust denial is vandalism. Grayfell (talk) 03:16, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

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Unity editEdit

Hey there, you recently reverted a change I made to the Unity engine page asking for a source why the Golden Axed game was made with Unity. I have it installed and it has the Unity dlls and telltale APPNAME_Data folder. As for as citable sources it's hard to find anything as there's really no posts by the authors about it but the Moby Games page entry for this lists is as belonging to the Unity engine group. Unfortunately I can't find any source that mentions Unity. I'm not a seasoned veteran like you on Wikipedia so help me out here. I know this is a Unity game (based on looking at the assets) but other than the post mentioned, there's no online source to verify it. Even the author Tim Dawson doesn't mention it in his thread on Twitter. A search through the Steam forums has several mentions of it by users [5] but again, these are not really reliable sources as far as Wikipeia goes. So how can one verify something like this? Thanks. bsimser (talk) 06:11, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

@Bsimser: Hello. Good points and thanks for bringing this up. This is a tough one. Generally, Wikipedia doesn't publish original research. Usually I would say we shouldn't bother to mention this if a reliable source cannot be found, but there are a couple of complications. The game's development was specifically more significant than the game itself, and the game was developed before Unity became ubiquitous. I have restored the entry with a 'citation needed' tag, and will also explain this on Talk:List of Unity games so there is an obvious place to continue this if necessary. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 09:01, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
@Grayfell: Thanks for the clarification and update. I agree some things are hard to verify and would normally be excluded, but I thought this entry was somewhat noteworthy because of the history of the game and the development of the prototype and it's release. Hopefully they'll be some kind of citation published and I'll update the entry. Appreciate the help. bsimser (talk) 13:31, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:Canuck the CrowEdit


Hello, Grayfell. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "Canuck the Crow".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been deleted. If you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion by following the instructions at this link. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. Liz Read! Talk! 23:02, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Changes to Hoskinson pageEdit

Hello Grayfell, I see you removed the 'Category:People associated with cryptocurrency' on the Charles Hoskinson page when you added 'Category:People associated with Ethereum'. This seems inconsistent, in that the two main Ethereum founders are listed as both, and Hoskinson has been a founder of more than one crypto. What are the rules on this? Thanks. IOHKwriter (talk) 12:45, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

@IOHKwriter: Hello. The guidelines are at Wikipedia:Categorization, and specifically at Wikipedia:DIFFUSE. Unfortunately categories are not very consistently applied on Wikipedia, so it is easy to find more examples of where this should be fixed. Grayfell (talk) 19:49, 27 November 2020 (UTC)


The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have discussed in the talk page. Since no one has given a response in the last few days. I decided to make the change if you disagree please say something there. 3Kingdoms (talk) 02:09, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

I already did, which you should've checked before posting this. Don't bother to respond here. Grayfell (talk) 04:38, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Happy holidaysEdit

Happy Holidays!

Hi Grayfell, May your holidays be merry and bright,
and hope you have a happy and healthy 2021

Netherzone (talk) 14:48, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, I hope you had a happy holidays as well. Grayfell (talk) 09:46, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

James CharlesEdit

I left a replied to your message on my talk page so go and have a look. Flash Lloyd (talk) 12:31, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Happy New YearEdit

Happy New Year 2021
I hope your New Year holiday is enjoyable and the coming year is much better than the one we are leaving behind.
Best wishes from Los Angeles.   // Timothy :: talk 
Thanks! Happy new year to you, too. Grayfell (talk) 09:46, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

It looks like the user FinishedCycle trying to push the Jewish Bolshevism conspiracy theory and that the Nazis are left wingEdit



And what somebody else said about this user,

(Confusing Israel's cause with American Jewry in general is a common mistake among antisemites) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Military_history_of_Jewish_Americans&diff=989293926&oldid=989242367

They also did this edit https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Georgy_Arbatov&diff=1001684192&oldid=1001017733. (talk) 04:26, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

I've added some other information on my talk page in response to this IP's post there, and have pointed DougWeller and Liz to it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:45, 21 January 2021 (UTC)