Template talk:Infobox Christian leader

Active discussions

Duplicate parm error in the templateEdit

There's a duplicate "type=sidebar" in the 1st line of code in Template:Infobox Christian leader, added by this edit. It put ~14K articles on Category:Pages using duplicate arguments in template_calls.

I'd fix it myself, but I'm not an administrator. Davemck (talk) 14:31, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 23 March 2020Edit

Please remove the duplicate "type=sidebar" from the first line of code. Thanks. Davemck (talk) 15:49, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

  DoneJonesey95 (talk) 16:52, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Convert to wrapperEdit

Parameter Infobox Christian leader Infobox religious biography
alias    
allegiance    
alma_mater    
alt    
appointed    
archbishop_of    
archdiocese    
attributes    
awards    
background    
baptised    
baptized    
battles    
beatified_by    
beatified_date    
beatified_place    
began    
birth_date    
birth_name    
birth_place    
birthname    
bishop_of    
branch    
buried    
canonized_by    
canonized_date    
canonized_place    
caption    
cardinal    
child    
children    
church    
churches    
citizenship    
coat_of_arms    
coat_of_arms_alt    
commands    
consecrated_by    
consecration    
created_cardinal_by    
creed    
cremation_place    
death_cause    
death_date    
death_place    
denomination    
dharma name    
dharma_name    
dharma_names    
diocese    
disciple_of    
disciples    
dynasty    
education    
elected    
embed    
ended    
English name    
enthroned    
era    
ethnicity    
expand_disciples    
expand_influenced    
expand_influences    
expand_students    
father    
feast_day    
flourished    
footnotes    
founder    
free_label    
free_text    
Full name    
guru    
home_town    
honorific prefix    
honorific suffix    
honorific_prefix    
honorific_suffix    
honorific-prefix    
honorific-suffix    
honors    
honours    
ideas    
image    
image_size    
image_upright    
imagesize    
imageupright    
influenced    
influences    
initiated    
initiated_label    
initiation    
initiation_date    
initiation_date2    
initiation_name    
initiation_name2    
initiation_place    
initiation_place2    
initiation_rank    
initiation_rank2    
initiator    
initiator2    
institute    
jurisprudence    
known_for    
laicized    
lineage    
literary_works    
location    
Maddhab    
Madh'hab    
main interests    
main_interests    
mawards    
metropolis    
military_blank1    
military_blank2    
military_blank3    
military_blank4    
military_blank5    
military_data1    
military_data2    
military_data3    
military_data4    
military_data5    
misc    
module    
module0    
module1    
module2    
module3    
module4    
module5    
monastic name    
monastic_name    
mother    
motto    
movement    
name    
nationality    
native name    
native name lang    
native_name    
native_name_lang    
nickname    
nocat_wdimage    
notable ideas    
notable works    
notable_ideas    
notable_works    
occupation    
office1    
office2    
office3    
office4    
official_name    
opposed    
ordained_by    
order    
ordination    
other    
other names    
other_name    
other_names    
other_post    
othername    
parents    
partner    
party    
patriarch_of    
patronage    
pen name    
pen_name    
Period    
period    
philosophy    
political party    
political_party    
post    
post-nominals    
posthumous name    
posthumous_name    
pre-nominals    
predecessor    
Predecessor    
predecessor1    
predecessor2    
predecessor3    
predecessor4    
present post    
present_post    
previous post    
previous_post    
profession    
pronunciation    
province    
quashed    
rank    
Rank    
Reason    
reason    
region    
reincarnation of    
reincarnation_of    
relations    
relatives    
religion    
residence    
resting place    
resting place coordinates    
resting_place    
resting_place_coordinates    
retired    
saint_title    
school    
school_tradition    
sect    
see    
serviceyears    
shrine    
signature    
signature alt    
signature_alt    
signature_size    
spouse    
students    
subsect    
successor    
Successor    
successor1    
successor2    
successor3    
successor4    
Sufi_order    
suppressed_date    
teacher    
teachers    
temple    
term    
term_end    
term_end1    
term_end2    
term_end3    
term_end4    
term_start    
term_start1    
term_start2    
term_start3    
term_start4    
term1    
term2    
term3    
term4    
title    
tomb    
type    
unit    
venerated    
website    
works    

This should be converted to wrapper of {{Infobox religious biography}} Capankajsmilyo(Talk | Infobox assistance) 04:09, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

At this point, there is far too little overlap. In the future, I might support a move to make one a wrapper of the other. Ergo Sum 15:48, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Sibling/Relative EntryEdit

I would like to request a "Sibling" or "Other relative" entry. For example, The late Georg Ratzinger, brother of emeritusPope Benedict XVI, has no appropriate entry for his association with his brother.

Potentially an entry like "other_relative; other_relative_type", "other_relative1; other_relative_type1", etc, to allow multiple miscellaneous relationships. –Zfish118talk 15:05, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 1 November 2020Edit

Need to discuss the colour change. --Governor Sheng (talk) 15:05, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

The default colour of the infobox should change to #AB274F instead of the current one #DFB0DF.

Reasons for this are mentioned in Purple#Piety, faith, penitence, and theology. Namely, the colour currently used by bishops is amaranth as decreed by Pope Paul II in 1464, well before the Protestant reformation. So this colour is common for both Catholics and Protestants. Since this was the main reason to use pink colour in the infobox, I think it should be improved to reflect this historical fact correctly. --Governor Sheng (talk) 04:31, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

The problem with using the deeper purple color is readability. While I think there probably should be a discussion about standardizing colors across Christianity-related templates, using #AB274F would not comply with MOS:CONTRAST, so for now, I'll have to decline the edit request. Ergo Sum 04:56, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
How about a lighter shade of that colour? #D54974? --Governor Sheng (talk) 20:35, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 Bishop Example  #AB274F (Makes letters automatically white, so obviously there's a contrast problem; blue letters are impossible to read)
 Bishop Example  #D54974
I agree AB274F has issues with contrast, but what do you think about D54974? --Governor Sheng (talk) 20:39, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
Eastern or Oriental Orthodox clergy do not use any colour for their bishops. Catholics, Anglicans, and some Protestant denominations use purple. --Governor Sheng (talk) 20:45, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
Can anyone respond to this suggestion? --Governor Sheng (talk) 22:02, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

I used the infobox' sandbox, and found that  D54974  is too dark.  E387A3  works fine. @Ergo Sum:, what do you think? --Governor Sheng (talk) 14:56, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

@Governor Sheng: I think #E387A3 works. I'll go ahead and make the change. Ergo Sum 19:41, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
When I check the contrast ratio between #E387A3 and #000000, I get a ratio of 8.26:1, which passes the minimum contrast ratio requirement. Can you confirm this? Also, what do you think of  E798AE  (5% lighter than #E387A3)? It appears somewhat closer to pink than plum but also comes with a higher contrast ratio (9.5:1) and seems easier to read (to my eye at least). Ergo Sum 19:47, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
Ok, I get the same results. I would agree with your assesement. E798AE is a better choice. --Governor Sheng (talk) 20:10, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
  DoneJonesey95 (talk) 20:45, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
And now undone, since a lack of consensus emerged after the above discussion was completed. I recommend doing your own testing in the sandbox and using the testcases page, then reinstating an edit request when things are settled. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:33, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

@Jonesey95 I think you should also change the colour in Template:Infobox bishop styles. Greetings, Kub347 (talk) 07:58, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

  • This is awful! Please restore to the previous colours. Grey for priest, purple for bishops, red for cardinals. They were readable and accurate, and were clearly different. To me, comparing Archbishop Justin Welby and Cardinal Angelo Sodano, bishop and cardinal are now much too similar. (@DBD: you might be interested). We shouldn't be choosing colours based on a decree from 1464... Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 14:38, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 
colour differention (in 2008)
  • Oho! We're back on this, are we? Here's some background reading from the archives, please everyone read up: 2016 2018 2020 (Always worthing checking the archives!)
I think the most relevant guideline here is MOS:COLOUR: if we use colours, we must have regard for accessibility. Beyond that, there's a long-established consensus (pastels corresponding to deacon/priest black, bishop violet, cardinal scarlet, pope gold); but consensus can, of course, change.
I agree that currently the violet and the scarlet are nigh-indistinguishable. Using this tool would suggest:  black #E8E8E8 ,  violet #FFE0F0 ,  scarlet #FFE2E2  and  gold #F1F100 . (But then I wonder whether these actually become too pale to be worth bothering with at all!)
DBD 15:15, 23 November 2020 (UTC)


Illustrated example of the above colours:

The Most Reverend and Right Honourable
Stephen Cottrell SCP
His Eminence
Vincent Nichols
The Very Reverend
Catherine Ogle
Pope
Benedict XVI


I have to agree with the need to clearly distinguish bishops and cardinals. The status quo ante did that well, and if there's no viable alternative, it should remain. The pale colors above are truly awful; I wouldn't endorse those. Ergo Sum 18:17, 23 November 2020 (UTC)


Anglican bishop
The Most Reverend and Right Honourable
Stephen Cottrell SCP
I don't think we can go back to the status quo ante — it clearly violates Wiki guidelines. Honestly, I like our colour scheme, but I don't think it's more important than visual accessibility. Also, at an admittedly quick look, there are no other implementations of Infobox person which vary their own header colour. If we want splashes of colour, even varying colours, perhaps a dark-backed line above? (see right)


His Eminence
Vincent Nichols
Or top and bottom "bars"? (right) I suppose, if they don't bear text, these could be any shade we wished... DBD 15:17, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
Can someone add colors to Patriarch and Metropolitans of Orthodox Church. J.Stalin S Talk 05:39, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
@DBD: What makes you say they violate guidelines? I don't see a violation. Just to be clear, I'm talking about the current template colors (prior to any change resulting from this discussion). Ergo Sum 17:53, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
@Ergo Sum: MOS:COLOUR: "Articles (and other pages) that use color should keep accessibility in mind, as follows: ... Some readers of Wikipedia are partially or fully color-blind or visually impaired. Ensure the contrast of the text with its background reaches at least Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) 2.0's AA level, and AAA level when feasible..."
Using Snook's tool (text is black, unvisited links are #0645AD and visited links are #0B0080):
Priest #BDBDBD text AAA unvis AA vis AAA
Bishop #DFB0DF text AAA unvis AA vis AAA
Cardinal #FFA4A4 text AAA unvis AA vis AAA
Pope #F7D79C text AAA unvis AA vis AAA
Actually... that's gone pretty well! Playing with that tool, apart from grey, it's not possible to make these shades pale enough to AAA contrast with blue links. Maybe we can decide that we've fulfilled the MOS advice because the contrast is "AA level, and AAA level when feasible..."? DBD 13:33, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm seeing a contrast ratio of between 11 and 15, well above the required 4.5. Ergo Sum 19:17, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

@DBD:, I really like this solution.

The Most Reverend
Ratko Perić
His Eminence
Angelo Sodano

The colours are correct and it's readable. But I'd like to check the exact RGB used for the episcopal purple and cardinal red... --Governor Sheng (talk) 12:51, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Also, should there be a different colour for Eastern and Oriental bishops? What's the tradition there? --Governor Sheng (talk) 12:58, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

@Ergo Sum:; @DBD:; @Jonesey95:; @Kub347:; @Gaia Octavia Agrippa:, how about we change the header style all together, as well as colour (example to the right)? --Governor Sheng (talk) 23:31, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Here it says that the episcopal color is amaranth [1]. Alteia is a reliable source, so I think we can rely on it. This is the color – [2]. According to the same source, we can use #FF2400 (scarlet) for cardinals. Example --Governor Sheng (talk) 23:45, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

 Bishop   Cardinal 

--Governor Sheng (talk) 23:48, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm quite happy with the 'bars' version (being my own design!); but in my most recent comment, I think I came 'round to the status quo being quite acceptable. If we do reach a consensus for the bars design, I wouldn't like to use the exact shades of amaranth and scarlet Sheng suggests because to my eye they aren't quite distinct enough. Also, I would prefer not to rely too heavily on one denomination's particular practices; and I'm sure no clerical outfitters anywhere are ensuring their episcopal vestments match a precise pantone ;) DBD 11:12, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
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