Template talk:Infobox Christian leader

Duplicate parm error in the template

There's a duplicate "type=sidebar" in the 1st line of code in Template:Infobox Christian leader, added by this edit. It put ~14K articles on Category:Pages using duplicate arguments in template_calls.

I'd fix it myself, but I'm not an administrator. Davemck (talk) 14:31, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 23 March 2020

Please remove the duplicate "type=sidebar" from the first line of code. Thanks. Davemck (talk) 15:49, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

 Done – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:52, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Convert to wrapper

Parameter	Infobox Christian leader	Infobox religious biography
alias
allegiance
alma_mater
alt
appointed
archbishop_of
archdiocese
attributes
awards
background
baptised
baptized
battles
beatified_by
beatified_date
beatified_place
began
birth_date
birth_name
birth_place
birthname
bishop_of
branch
buried
canonized_by
canonized_date
canonized_place
caption
cardinal
child
children
church
churches
citizenship
coat_of_arms
coat_of_arms_alt
commands
consecrated_by
consecration
created_cardinal_by
creed
cremation_place
death_cause
death_date
death_place
denomination
dharma name
dharma_name
dharma_names
diocese
disciple_of
disciples
dynasty
education
elected
embed
ended
English name
enthroned
era
ethnicity
expand_disciples
expand_influenced
expand_influences
expand_students
father
feast_day
flourished
footnotes
founder
free_label
free_text
Full name
guru
home_town
honorific prefix
honorific suffix
honorific_prefix
honorific_suffix
honorific-prefix
honorific-suffix
honors
honours
ideas
image
image_size
image_upright
imagesize
imageupright
influenced
influences
initiated
initiated_label
initiation
initiation_date
initiation_date2
initiation_name
initiation_name2
initiation_place
initiation_place2
initiation_rank
initiation_rank2
initiator
initiator2
institute
jurisprudence
known_for
laicized
lineage
literary_works
location
Maddhab
Madh'hab
main interests
main_interests
mawards
metropolis
military_blank1
military_blank2
military_blank3
military_blank4
military_blank5
military_data1
military_data2
military_data3
military_data4
military_data5
misc
module
module0
module1
module2
module3
module4
module5
monastic name
monastic_name
mother
motto
movement
name
nationality
native name
native name lang
native_name
native_name_lang
nickname
nocat_wdimage
notable ideas
notable works
notable_ideas
notable_works
occupation
office1
office2
office3
office4
official_name
opposed
ordained_by
order
ordination
other
other names
other_name
other_names
other_post
othername
parents
partner
party
patriarch_of
patronage
pen name
pen_name
Period
period
philosophy
political party
political_party
post
post-nominals
posthumous name
posthumous_name
pre-nominals
predecessor
Predecessor
predecessor1
predecessor2
predecessor3
predecessor4
present post
present_post
previous post
previous_post
profession
pronunciation
province
quashed
rank
Rank
Reason
reason
region
reincarnation of
reincarnation_of
relations
relatives
religion
residence
resting place
resting place coordinates
resting_place
resting_place_coordinates
retired
saint_title
school
school_tradition
sect
see
serviceyears
shrine
signature
signature alt
signature_alt
signature_size
spouse
students
subsect
successor
Successor
successor1
successor2
successor3
successor4
Sufi_order
suppressed_date
teacher
teachers
temple
term
term_end
term_end1
term_end2
term_end3
term_end4
term_start
term_start1
term_start2
term_start3
term_start4
term1
term2
term3
term4
title
tomb
type
unit
venerated
website
works

This should be converted to wrapper of {{Infobox religious biography}} Capankajsmilyo^{(Talk | Infobox assistance)} 04:09, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

At this point, there is far too little overlap. In the future, I might support a move to make one a wrapper of the other. Ergo Sum 15:48, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Sibling/Relative Entry

I would like to request a "Sibling" or "Other relative" entry. For example, The late Georg Ratzinger, brother of emeritusPope Benedict XVI, has no appropriate entry for his association with his brother.

Potentially an entry like "other_relative; other_relative_type", "other_relative1; other_relative_type1", etc, to allow multiple miscellaneous relationships. –Zfish118^⋉talk 15:05, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 1 November 2020

Need to discuss the colour change. --Governor Sheng (talk) 15:05, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

The default colour of the infobox should change to #AB274F instead of the current one #DFB0DF.

Reasons for this are mentioned in Purple#Piety, faith, penitence, and theology. Namely, the colour currently used by bishops is amaranth as decreed by Pope Paul II in 1464, well before the Protestant reformation. So this colour is common for both Catholics and Protestants. Since this was the main reason to use pink colour in the infobox, I think it should be improved to reflect this historical fact correctly. --Governor Sheng (talk) 04:31, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

The problem with using the deeper purple color is readability. While I think there probably should be a discussion about standardizing colors across Christianity-related templates, using #AB274F would not comply with MOS:CONTRAST, so for now, I'll have to decline the edit request. Ergo Sum 04:56, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

How about a lighter shade of that colour? #D54974? --Governor Sheng (talk) 20:35, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

 Bishop Example  #AB274F (Makes letters automatically white, so obviously there's a contrast problem; blue letters are impossible to read)

 Bishop Example  #D54974

I agree AB274F has issues with contrast, but what do you think about D54974? --Governor Sheng (talk) 20:39, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Eastern or Oriental Orthodox clergy do not use any colour for their bishops. Catholics, Anglicans, and some Protestant denominations use purple. --Governor Sheng (talk) 20:45, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Can anyone respond to this suggestion? --Governor Sheng (talk) 22:02, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

I used the infobox' sandbox, and found that  D54974  is too dark.  E387A3  works fine. @Ergo Sum:, what do you think? --Governor Sheng (talk) 14:56, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

@Governor Sheng: I think #E387A3 works. I'll go ahead and make the change. Ergo Sum 19:41, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

When I check the contrast ratio between #E387A3 and #000000, I get a ratio of 8.26:1, which passes the minimum contrast ratio requirement. Can you confirm this? Also, what do you think of  E798AE  (5% lighter than #E387A3)? It appears somewhat closer to pink than plum but also comes with a higher contrast ratio (9.5:1) and seems easier to read (to my eye at least). Ergo Sum 19:47, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I get the same results. I would agree with your assesement. E798AE is a better choice. --Governor Sheng (talk) 20:10, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

 Done – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:45, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

And now undone, since a lack of consensus emerged after the above discussion was completed. I recommend doing your own testing in the sandbox and using the testcases page, then reinstating an edit request when things are settled. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:33, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

@Jonesey95 I think you should also change the colour in Template:Infobox bishop styles. Greetings, Kub347 (talk) 07:58, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

• This is awful! Please restore to the previous colours. Grey for priest, purple for bishops, red for cardinals. They were readable and accurate, and were clearly different. To me, comparing Archbishop Justin Welby and Cardinal Angelo Sodano, bishop and cardinal are now much too similar. (@DBD: you might be interested). We shouldn't be choosing colours based on a decree from 1464... Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 14:38, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

colour differention (in 2008)

• Oho! We're back on this, are we? Here's some background reading from the archives, please everyone read up: 2016 2018 2020 (Always worthing checking the archives!)

I think the most relevant guideline here is MOS:COLOUR: if we use colours, we must have regard for accessibility. Beyond that, there's a long-established consensus (pastels corresponding to deacon/priest black, bishop violet, cardinal scarlet, pope gold); but consensus can, of course, change.

I agree that currently the violet and the scarlet are nigh-indistinguishable. Using this tool would suggest:  black #E8E8E8 ,  violet #FFE0F0 ,  scarlet #FFE2E2  and  gold #F1F100 . (But then I wonder whether these actually become too pale to be worth bothering with at all!)

DBD 15:15, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Illustrated example of the above colours:

The Most Reverend and Right Honourable Stephen Cottrell SCP

His Eminence Vincent Nichols

The Very Reverend Catherine Ogle

Pope Benedict XVI

I have to agree with the need to clearly distinguish bishops and cardinals. The status quo ante did that well, and if there's no viable alternative, it should remain. The pale colors above are truly awful; I wouldn't endorse those. Ergo Sum 18:17, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Anglican bishop The Most Reverend and Right Honourable Stephen Cottrell SCP

I don't think we can go back to the status quo ante — it clearly violates Wiki guidelines. Honestly, I like our colour scheme, but I don't think it's more important than visual accessibility. Also, at an admittedly quick look, there are no other implementations of Infobox person which vary their own header colour. If we want splashes of colour, even varying colours, perhaps a dark-backed line above? (see right)

His Eminence Vincent Nichols

Or top and bottom "bars"? (right) I suppose, if they don't bear text, these could be any shade we wished... DBD 15:17, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Can someone add colors to Patriarch and Metropolitans of Orthodox Church. J.Stalin S ^Talk 05:39, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

@DBD: What makes you say they violate guidelines? I don't see a violation. Just to be clear, I'm talking about the current template colors (prior to any change resulting from this discussion). Ergo Sum 17:53, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

@Ergo Sum: MOS:COLOUR: "Articles (and other pages) that use color should keep accessibility in mind, as follows: ... Some readers of Wikipedia are partially or fully color-blind or visually impaired. Ensure the contrast of the text with its background reaches at least Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) 2.0's AA level, and AAA level when feasible..."

Using Snook's tool (text is black, unvisited links are #0645AD and visited links are #0B0080):

Priest #BDBDBD text AAA unvis AA vis AAA

Bishop #DFB0DF text AAA unvis AA vis AAA

Cardinal #FFA4A4 text AAA unvis AA vis AAA

Pope #F7D79C text AAA unvis AA vis AAA

Actually... that's gone pretty well! Playing with that tool, apart from grey, it's not possible to make these shades pale enough to AAA contrast with blue links. Maybe we can decide that we've fulfilled the MOS advice because the contrast is "AA level, and AAA level when feasible..."? DBD 13:33, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm seeing a contrast ratio of between 11 and 15, well above the required 4.5. Ergo Sum 19:17, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

@DBD:, I really like this solution.

The Most Reverend Ratko Perić

His Eminence Angelo Sodano

The colours are correct and it's readable. But I'd like to check the exact RGB used for the episcopal purple and cardinal red... --Governor Sheng (talk) 12:51, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Also, should there be a different colour for Eastern and Oriental bishops? What's the tradition there? --Governor Sheng (talk) 12:58, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

@Ergo Sum:; @DBD:; @Jonesey95:; @Kub347:; @Gaia Octavia Agrippa:, how about we change the header style all together, as well as colour (example to the right)? --Governor Sheng (talk) 23:31, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Here it says that the episcopal color is amaranth [1]. Alteia is a reliable source, so I think we can rely on it. This is the color – [2]. According to the same source, we can use #FF2400 (scarlet) for cardinals. Example --Governor Sheng (talk) 23:45, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

 Bishop   Cardinal 

--Governor Sheng (talk) 23:48, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm quite happy with the 'bars' version (being my own design!); but in my most recent comment, I think I came 'round to the status quo being quite acceptable. If we do reach a consensus for the bars design, I wouldn't like to use the exact shades of amaranth and scarlet Sheng suggests because to my eye they aren't quite distinct enough. Also, I would prefer not to rely too heavily on one denomination's particular practices; and I'm sure no clerical outfitters anywhere are ensuring their episcopal vestments match a precise pantone ;) DBD 11:12, 8 December 2020 (UTC)