Talk:Bharata (Mahabharata)

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Request to delete this pageEdit

I kindly request the administrators to delete this page because there is hardly any sourced information , And contains misleading information Jainallotrope (talk) 22:10, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

TitleEdit

The term "emperor" is applicable to Bharata Chakravartin as well -- this article should be moved to something like Bharata (son of Dushyanta), Bharata (son of Shakuntala), or Bharata (Mahabharata). utcursch | talk 17:39, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

I would support Bharata (Mahabharata).
Btw in context of the recent edits/reverts at History of India, there is genuine confusion and disagreement among (otherwise) reliable sources about which Bharat exactly is the source of India's alternate name. IIRC and roughly speaking, secular histories and sources on Hindu mythology point to some vague historical/legendary Indian emperor named Bharata or even to the Rigvedic tribe, while sources on Jain mythology are definitive in claiming Bharata Chakravartin as the source. I had researched and discussed this somewhere on wikipedia many years back but can't recall where exactly. Pinging Kautilya3 who may know more about the topic. Abecedare (talk) 18:58, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
Also pinging Redtigerxyz for their thoughts on the rename proposal. Abecedare (talk) 19:04, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
Apparently, several Puranas explicitly mention that the geographical name "Bharata" is derived from the name of Rishabha's son. Several books state that the term is derived from the name of Dushyanta's son -- I'm not sure which (if any) primary source mentions this. Also pinging Ms Sarah Welch, who has been active at Purana-related articles. This is probably best discussed at Talk:Names of India. utcursch | talk 20:48, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
Abecedare and Utcursch: Beyond the Jaina mythology, the two relevant Hindu Puranas on Bharata are the Bhagavata and Vishnu Puranas. In the third skanda, the most popular Purana, the Bhagavata mentions the Bharata war and Krishna's death (see, page 141-142 of Ludo Rocher's The Puranas). Its fifth skanda then goes on to tell the story of Rishabha and his eldest son Bharata, and how a land that was once called Ajanabha was renamed to Bharata-varsa, followed by a description of the earth, sun, moon, planets, etc (Rocher, pp. 142). The last four chapters, 13th to 16th, of the second amsa (=book) of the Vishnu Purana tell the legend of the Bharata (Rocher, pp. 247). Parts of the Mahabharata war variously overlap in the Puranas, depending on which manuscript of each Purana one reviews (the same Purana's manuscripts vary a lot). Ernst Leumann, if I recall right, had papers on Bharata ovarlap in Jainism and Hinduism, though his originals are a dated source. Bharata (Mahabharata) would be a better title for this article. An alternate approach may be to review and update the Bharata (Hinduism) article so that it comprehensively covers the subject across the Mahabharata, the Ramayana and the Puranas. Utcursch: I had cleaned up all the 18 main Puranas and main Purana articles, but entropy-vandalism and some serious trashing of the main article has occurred in recent months. They need a review and watch. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 22:46, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm still somewhat unclear about the following points:
  • Do modern scholars identify Rishabha's son Bharata of the Hindu Puranas with Rishabha's son Bharata of the Jain texts?
  • Do modern scholars identify Rishabha's son Bharata of the Hindu Puranas with Dushyanta's son Bharata of the Mahabharata? (If I recall correctly, the answer is 'no' according to Redtigerxyz)
Depending on answers to these questions, it might be a good idea to:
  • Update the article Bharata Chakravartin with the variations of the legend from various Hindu and Jain texts, or
  • Turning Bharata (Hinduism) into an article about the person described in the Hindu texts
Either way, this article needs a different title. utcursch | talk 16:14, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

() There are 5 Bharatas:

  • Bharata, the Chakravati of Jainism: Son of Rishabhanatha - Bharata Chakravartin (should be renamed as Bharata (Jainism) IMO), who is also referred to in Hindu Puranas; his father treated as Vishnu's avatar
  • Bharata of Rigveda - Ancestor of Bharatas (tribe) - not unanimously identified with Bharata of Mahabharata
  • Bharata, author of Natyashastra - Bharata Muni

Besides several other kings and sages in Hinduism called Bharata. Both the Hindu and Jain Bharata Chakravatis as well as Vedic Bharata are claimed to be root of the Name of India as Bharata-varsha.Redtigerxyz Talk 16:57, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, since everyone here agrees, I've moved the article to Bharata (Mahabharata). utcursch | talk 17:37, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
  • In response to Abecedare's original question, I am personally convinced that both Bharatavarsha and Mahabharata are named after the Bharata tribe of the Rigveda. The Hindu as well as Jain eponymous ancestors are fictitious, as you would rightly expect from the Puranas. Michael Witzel says:

Why has Kurukshetra been regarded so highly ever since the early Vedic period? Actually, the Rgvedic archetype of the Mahabharata, the “Ten Kings’ Battle” (dasarajna), took place further west on the Parusni (Ravi). Due to the victory of the Bharata chieftain Sudas in this battle, the Bharata tribe was able to settle in the Kurukshetra area.[4] The evolvement of the small tribal Bharata domination into that of a much larger Kuru realm is not recorded by our texts. The Kurus suddenly appear on the scene in the post-Rgvedic texts. As so often, the Sanskrit texts record only the results of certain developments.[1]

B. N. Mukherjee continues:

Originally denoting a part of northern India (as denoted by the Hathigumpha inscription of c. 1st century BC),[29] the name Bhāratavarsha came to signify by sometime in the early centuries of the Christian Era the whole of the subcontinent. The Natyasastra of Bharata, which is to be placed by c. 3rd century AD,[30] if not a still earlier age,[31] used the name Bhāratavarsha in the sense of the whole (or nearly so) of the Indian subcontinent.[32][2]

-- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:56, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

  • Thanks for the input everyone. Perhaps the discussion of the India naming issue can be continued at Talk:Names of India. Abecedare (talk) 18:30, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Witzel, Michael (1995), "Early Sanskritization. Origins and Development of the Kuru State." (PDF), Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies, 1–4: 1–26
  2. ^ * Mukherjee, Bratindra Nath (2001), Nationhood and Statehood in India: A historical survey, Regency Publications, pp. 5–6, ISBN 978-81-87498-26-1
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